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Re: Ok, for adult beginners only... #415744
06/25/02 02:26 PM
06/25/02 02:26 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 151
Atlanta Area
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Beth Offline
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Beth  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 151
Atlanta Area
1) Elementary: 3 1/2 years piano. Beginning 6th grade, 4 years violin- school orchestra only- no private instruction.
2) Piano, violin, a little guitar for a couple of summers as a camp counselor
3) Returned to piano lessons 4 years ago fulfilling a desire I'd had for many, many years.
4) A bunch, actually, though some I haven't played as much recently would require more review than I have time to give them. Classical repetoire, from best to worst: Chopin Nocturne, c# minor, op. posthumous, Bach Preludes; F and e, Haydn Sonata D major, first movement, Bach Invention in B flat major, Mendelsohn Song without Words, Venetian Boat song, several other smaller pieces by Brahms, Shumann, others. Several contemporary pieces from NMTA Festival lists, Bali H'ai, Hymns and hymn arrangements for preludes or offeratories during church service.
5) Hymns and more hymns, hymn arrangements, 2nd movement of Haydn Sonata in D, 2 Organ parts for duets for this Sunday morning.
6) Not even going there.. there are several, mostly because I struggle with insufficient velocity.

Beginning again with piano has truly been one of the best decisions I've ever made. Developing disciplined practice, including "practicing" performing to be able to play despite some serious performance anxiety has not always been easy. I make myself play for others whenever I have the opportunity because I want to share my joy in and love of music. My ultimate goal is to be able to play regularly at church.

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Re: Ok, for adult beginners only... #415745
06/26/02 01:17 AM
06/26/02 01:17 AM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 22
Melbourne, Australia
T
The Hands of Rabalthazar Offline
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Posts: 22
Melbourne, Australia
Just wondering if you could check and tell me which Chopin Waltz you are playing as an exercise.......

......You might want to try the Preludes instead, which IMHO are MUCH better music and although technically more difficult, they are more fun to play.[/QB][/QUOTE]

The waltz I'm playing is Opus 69, No. 2. I'm not terribly interested in it, musically, but it is a style that I've not had a lot of experience with and, as such, I'm playing it to enhance my technique in this style.

I'm familiar with some Chopin preludes and I agree that they are quite beautiful. When I say that I'm not a fan of Chopin, I only mean that he is not one of my favourite composers. No disrespect intended towards the man.


Some of you might not remember us, but we sure do!- Joel Grind (of Joel Grind and the Broken Teeth)
Re: Ok, for adult beginners only... #415746
06/26/02 08:24 AM
06/26/02 08:24 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 31
Lexington, MA
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Noelle Offline
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 31
Lexington, MA
BLee writes -
Quote

Hi, Folks,

I keep forgetting to ask this question of all of you. How big a part does theory play in your lessons/practicing?
I usually play 15 - 30 minutes of Hanon with every practice - exercises, a couple of scales and arpeggios (sp?). I know that Hanon is controversial but I find the work has helped a lot with my speed, accuracy and flexibility. I also find it easier to focus on evenness and tone when playing something mechanical. As a beginner, I get overwhelmed when I'm trying to coordinate right hand, left hand, pedaling and musical awareness. (Now where was the melody again?) Hanon removes a couple of the variables so I can concentrate on technique.

My teacher talks to me occasionally about theory. Usually in reference to the piece I'm working on at the time. Sometimes I get it and sometimes I don't. I have found that analyzing the structure on my own is the most helpful. I find it much easier to play the entire piece (instead of note to note) once I understand the progression. Unfortunately, that understanding can takes months to finally sink in. The transition from playing notes to playing music is most frustrating part of learning a piece for me.

Re: Ok, for adult beginners only... #415747
06/27/02 05:00 PM
06/27/02 05:00 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 2
bristol, pa
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pianogenie Offline
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 2
bristol, pa
I have been playing the piano for 48 years and have been teaching for 30 years. I have played it seems just about everything and train young pianists but also work with some adults. I also play the cello and used to play the flute. My granmother was a concert pianist and I was raised on piano 24/7.

Re: Ok, for adult beginners only... #415748
06/28/02 03:09 PM
06/28/02 03:09 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 2
San Diego, CA
T
Toni L. Offline
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Toni L.  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 2
San Diego, CA
I just discovered this forum and was intrigued with the adult learners topic. It's fun to discover other like-minded ones who have the courage to undertake new ventures, even late in life.

1 & 2. This one is not clear cut. My father was a musician and music teacher whose dream was to have a family band, each learning a different instrument. I grew up with music in the house and began accordian lessons at age 4 (yes, a bit too young). My dream instrument was the piano but since that was my brother's instrument that was that. Eventually my siblings quit music and I stuck with it until around age 10.

In junior high school I took up the clarinet and joined the band (accordions were NOT the in instrument). I must have done pretty well because the band director wanted to place me in the first seat in the senior band. A self confident child might have been inspired but I did what any other introverted kid might do, I was petrified at the thought and quit!

In my mid 20s, as a mother of two youngsters, I began taking piano lessons - at last my dream! The teacher was extremely talented at playing but in retrospect perhaps not the best at teaching. I had about 5 years on and off but in all honesty did not devote the time it would take to become accomplished. Too many other things to do as a busy working mother. When my youngest daughter, who had passed me up in skill, began threatening to quit I believed she was feeling competition so I decided to remove that and I quit. II didn't care for our teacher anyways). Of course you can all guess what happened, she eventually stopped taking lessons anyways. I didn't return - the original teacher had retired and I didn't care for the methods of the only other teacher in the small town. However I never gave up the desire to play the piano, buying several keyboards through the years and retiring them to the closet in short order because of my frustration trying to make music with them.

In my late 40's and starting from scratch, I learned to play a djembe drum (African hand-to- hand drum) in a group, which over time evolved into an ensemble that did public performances. It was great fun and along the way I learned something important. Despite not having a natural sense of percussive rhythm, in 5 years I got pretty good, just from dedicated practice. Hand drumming African rhythms takes a lot of energy and I was feeling it. In my 50's I was the oldest one in the group. When we had a 2-3 hour long performance the kids in their 20's and 30's went home, showered and went out for the evening. I went home, showered and crashed! So... when our ensemble director moved away, well....it was time to retire from drumming.

3. I missed music in my life. At age 58 I bought yet another keyboard and started teaching myself. I had no interest in being a performer, I just wanted to play for enjoyment. A friend who began lessons from scratch 7 years ago in her 40's (and now plays wonderfully) was an inspiration. She gave me a few hints about practicing methodology that I'd never been taught although they are quite obvious now that I know them - little tricks of the trade so to speak. Example: start with the most difficult measures or phrases FIRST. Practice only those until mastered, then practice the next most difficult measures. When all of the difficult parts are mastered, you fill in the easier parts and start playing from the beginning of the piece. The whole piece comes together, it flows and polishes up relatively easily. (My previous experience was to sail through a piece from beginning to end, feeling really great until I bogged down in the difficult "wet cement" part and ended feeling discouraged.)

Six months ago I began lessons with a great teacher and what a difference. I have had many many sloppy habits to unlearn. I've applied the discipline learned in drumming, with the concentration gained through the practice of meditation, plus new techniques in practice methodology and I know that I am making great progress. Just this past week my teacher shared that when I began 6 months ago, I had some talent but it was pretty raw. She says I now play like a "pianist." From her this compliment carries a lot of weight. Although she is very supportive and always acknowledges areas of progress she does not give insincere compliments. She is very particular about technique and I certainly continue to need that instruction but was encouraged by this very unexpected compliment!

4. I've completed simplified versions of the Bachs Brandenburg Concerto No. 5, Handel's Hallelulah chorus, and Beeethovens Symphony No. 5 in C Minor, first movement. I'm currently working on Chopin's Waltz in F Minor. It is the full version but is not a difficult piece. It takes about 2 months to finish each piece. I add variety to my palate by playing around with some new age pieces or pop favorites that I fall in love with. I usually bring them to every 3rd or 4th lesson for her input. Since they are not part of my lesson I can drop them at will if I get bored with them. I choose my music far differently than I used to. I now pick new pieces that are at my skill level instead of way over my head so I can accomplish them relatively easily (less than a month) and feel a sense of accomplishment and have something else for show and tell.

5. Pieces tried and gave up on. Yep. Lots of them. I like to taste them and move on because my skill level is just not there yet and I know it. But it is fun to sample them just the same. There are several new age composers that I like, such as Yanni, Jim Chapelle, Michael Jones, Suzanne Cianni. I can play through some of them and parts of others, but none of them flow flawlessly. From them I'll pick a challenging phrase or page and work on it just for fun until I feel some sense of accomplishment yet feel that it's OK to drop them. After all, most of my practice time and energy is devoted to the lesson piece. There are many classical pieces that are still farther down the road. I like Debussy's Golliwog's Cakewalk, and others from the Childrens Corner Suite.

For those who want to forge on alone for your own enjoyment,and teach yourself I say why not! Go for it and enjoy, enjoy, enjoy. There is such enjoyment in playing music at all skill levels.

For those who are considering taking lessons, I say find a good teacher and you will leave your former skills in the dust without regret. You will realize a new life to your playing that you just can't acquire on your own. I not only want to play but to play well, even if I am only playing for myself. I want the music to fully express whatever it is intended to express, whatever it is that I'm trying to express through it. And it just wasn't quite happening left to my own devices. After all, if I was aware of those poor techniques I would have corrected them. It seems to be a combination of many subtle, little things that makes a difference whether the music flows or is choppy. So for those who want to realize more out of their music life, I'm all for having a good teacher.


Toni L.
Re: Ok, for adult beginners only... #415749
06/28/02 10:01 PM
06/28/02 10:01 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,031
Colorado
Dan Offline OP
1000 Post Club Member
Dan  Offline OP
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,031
Colorado
Hi Toni,

Welcome to the forum. I think you'll find this to be a great place to "meet" like-minded people and engage in some interesting discussions. (Like minded as far as a love of piano that is. Other topics (and sometimes even piano topics) can get pretty interesting and heated at times!).

I was inspired by your post. When I stop to think about it, I know that I'm playing piano for the sheer enjoyment I derive from it. Sometimes tho' I can lose sight of that and get bogged down and frustrated. It was nice to read your history as it served as a fresh reminder.

Again, welcome! Please keep reading and posting.

Regards,
Dan

Re: Ok, for adult beginners only... #415750
06/30/02 06:33 PM
06/30/02 06:33 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 103
California
E
Evan70 Offline
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Evan70  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 103
California
Great post, Toni! I am definitely the “forge ahead alone” type, although I would like to find a teacher.

This is a great forum. I didn’t know that there were so many like me out there. I ‘d love to share technical problems and questions with everyone.

Lets start---I have small hands and have difficulty playing the next to last right hand chord in LvB’s Op. 2 No.1 2’nd movement. Its a 5 note chord (don’t know the name, sorry) with separation of all fingers. I can play it, but not cleanly. I’ve been working on it, and fortunately, there is a half measure rest before it. Its hard for me to curl my fingers just so to hit the notes cleanly. Any thoughts?

Re: Ok, for adult beginners only... #415751
07/01/02 07:31 AM
07/01/02 07:31 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 151
Atlanta Area
B
Beth Offline
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 151
Atlanta Area
Can't help you with that one, Evan. And the ones who can may not be following a "for beginners only" thread. Why don't you take that last paragraph and start a new thread?

Re: Ok, for adult beginners only... #415752
09/12/02 09:31 PM
09/12/02 09:31 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 2
San Diego, CA
T
Toni L. Offline
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Toni L.  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 2
San Diego, CA
:rolleyes: Little hands. Yes, I know what you mean. Wouldn't it be great to have longer fingers? My teacher, also a woman with short fingers, says there are some workarounds but there will be chords that we just cannot reach, moreso with certain long-fingered composers than with others. You can stretch your reach by playing/hanging off the front edge of the keys for that particular chord, but I don't know if it is possible with a 5 note chord or if the first and last notes are black keys.


Toni L.
Re: Ok, for adult beginners only... #415753
09/13/02 03:51 AM
09/13/02 03:51 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 790
Auckland, New Zealand
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Ted2 Offline
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Ted2  Offline
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 790
Auckland, New Zealand
Evan:

Just looked the chord up.

Let's think.

No good leaving out the B flat - essential 7th sound needed.

Better not leave out the top G - melodic reasons.

Could leave out the top E but there's probably no point as the bother's no doubt caused by the closeness of the second and third finger on the B flat and C.

Therefore:

1. Try leaving out the C (third finger) There are already two Cs down below so it shouldn't make much difference.

2. If that's no good, play the C but leave out the G (put thumb on B flat instead) - there are still two other Gs in the chord.

Any good ?


"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley
Re: Ok, for adult beginners only... #415754
09/16/02 11:33 AM
09/16/02 11:33 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 195
Portland, Oregon
momalboe Offline
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momalboe  Offline
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 195
Portland, Oregon
1) Total years of playing any instrument: Started Trombone in 6th grade and played for 8 years. The last 2-1/2 years of that as a college music major so had to learn the basics of almost all band/symphony instruments. Also a beginning keyboarding class for 1 semester.

2) What instruments you have played: Just about everything very rudimentally. I could probably still play the trombone, euphonium and clarinet fairly decently but haven't touched any of them in 15 years.

3) Recent years of playing piano: 3 months

4) Pieces you can play: Well I am definitely a beginner although I think I'm making decent progress. I can pretty much "fake" sight read (chord in left hand, melody in right hand) most pop music. I've delved a little more deeply into some Billy Joel favorites - Piano Man, New York State of Mind, and others.

In my lessons I'm working on getting through the First Lessons In Bach, Book No. 1 and I've finished numbers 1 through 11.

We're also working on jazz and blues scales/chord progressions/alternating rhythms and improvisational theory so there aren't really any pieces that you would likely know by the arrangement since they are arranged by my teacher.

5) Pieces you're working on: Working on finishing the Bach book. On my own I'm also working on the first movement of Beethovan's Moonlight Sonata, Bach's Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring. I've worked on the Linus and Lucy piece that other's have mentioned and I'd say it's almost "done" but still working on getting the timing right.

6) Pieces you’ve spent some serious time working on, but eventually stopped working on for whatever reason: None - haven't gotten that frustrated... yet wink

Re: Ok, for adult beginners only... #415755
09/16/02 02:43 PM
09/16/02 02:43 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 195
Portland, Oregon
momalboe Offline
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momalboe  Offline
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Posts: 195
Portland, Oregon
Quote
Originally posted by BLee:

What are your opinions about theory?
I have found that my theory background helps me immensely but I don't know if it will help me as much once I've been playing longer. I have only been taking lessons for 3 months, but because of my general music and theory background I'm able to play much more music than my extremely limited piano skills should allow for.

The single most invaluable thing, at least in my experience, is knowing my chords so well. They've been grilled into my head so much that I don't have to think about them. Because of this, when I'm playing music which has the chord notations, the left hand is automatic and I really only have to concentrate on the melody in the right hand.

I'm sure there are other things that my theory knowledge helps me with that I don't even realize.

That said, I'm not sure that I'd have the patience as an adult to learn it from scratch and you do kind of learn it via osmosis the more you play anyway.

Re: Ok, for adult beginners only... #415756
09/17/02 04:10 PM
09/17/02 04:10 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,748
Auckland, New Zealand
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Ted Offline
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Ted  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,748
Auckland, New Zealand
There seem to be at least three aspects to "theory" as it relates to piano music.

1. The sort of chord knowledge you describe, broadened and deepened beyond this into an extensive and intimate understanding of the keyboard, its patterns, sounds and their relationship to your mind and what you need to create.

2. The ways of representing this using marks on paper.

3. Sets of rules which have been used by various fashions and traditions in history about which patterns to use and when to use them.

In the personal creative sense the first is all you need and by far the most important.

If you want to transmit your ideas to others and learn their music in turn, then the second is necessary because we haven't invented anything better yet.

How important the third is depends on whether or not you wish to play and write more or less conventional music. It depends on the extent you consider yourself to be part of a musical tradition. If you want to write baroque fugues or traditional jazz then you need to study the associated conventions.


"We shall always love the music of the masters, but they are all dead and now it's our turn." - Llewelyn Jones, my piano teacher
Re: Ok, for adult beginners only... #415757
09/17/02 04:54 PM
09/17/02 04:54 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 4
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Dianaca Offline
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 4
Hi Everyone,

I may not be fully "qualified" to respond... yet, but I am more excited than ever to have found this forum and to soon join your ranks!

1) I am 32 and I played the Clarinet for 8 years as a kid. Gave it up when I went to college. I had always wanted to learn to play the piano, but my parents thought the Clarinet was enough. I talked my mom into a 6 week summer class in my early teens, but since we couldn't afford a piano, I couldn't really practice and gave up mid-course to the relief of my mom, however the desire to learn never left me. Now I'm the mom and I'm looking to buy our first piano so that my two little ones, along with me - FINALLY - can learn together!

I kept thinking some might consider me silly for wanting to learn at this point in my life ( not that I really cared if anyone thought that or not!) but you have all inspired me more than ever to go for it!

And Mike, I like the way your wife shops!! smile I too am a stay at home mom!! And reading that post just made me chuckle, I'm sure my husband can relate! laugh

Diana

Re: Ok, for adult beginners only... #415758
09/19/02 07:46 PM
09/19/02 07:46 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 258
Atlanta, GA
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o2photo Offline
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 258
Atlanta, GA
I don't think it's silly for wanting to take up piano. I am doing the same at 28. The reason is twofold. My wife and I want our children (one currently, 3 yet to be made) to play, and I want to play more than I want my children to play.

We are awaiting our very first piano. It should be here in a couple of weeks. I have never really played anything, though I *vaguely* recall a violin in my hands in an elementary music class.

I just can't wait. Don't worry about what other people think. Life is way to short. Just go after it.

Later on,

Marc

Re: Ok, for adult beginners only... #415759
10/02/02 10:38 AM
10/02/02 10:38 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 20
Sweden
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chodie Offline
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 20
Sweden
1) 11
2) classical guitar and piano
3) 5
4) Brahms ballades, op. 10, Chopin Polonaise-fantaise, some of the etudes, some Beethoven sonatas for instance, op. 2 no. 1 op. 10 no. 1 op. 13 ,op. 22. Bach partita no. 1

5) Chopin polonaise-fantaisie, Hamelin Scarlatti etude, Scarlatti sonata in b minor, Rachmaninov prelude op 32 no. 12
6) Liszt hungarian rhapsody no.2, Beethoven concerto no. 1, Liszt transcendental study no. 2, 8

Re: Ok, for adult beginners only... #415760
11/20/02 10:47 AM
11/20/02 10:47 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 235
Atlanta, Georgia, USA
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BeethBaChopin Offline
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 235
Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Here is my report, also posted in another topic:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am also an adult beginner. I have been playing for about 3 months now. I am self-taught, but I have a number of self-teaching books and tapes.

I practice for an hour 2-3 times a week. Here is what I have done so far:

-sight-reading treble clef well and bass clef with some difficulty,
-memorized the position of keys ( I can slowly play without looking down at the keyboard),
-can sight-read a few pieces fairly fast (listed below),
-developed playing virtuosity to some degree through Hanon exercies.

Here are some pieces I have memorized partially and can play at about half of the right tempo. I use these for my practices, and hope to get to full tempo in another month:

1-Fur Elise
2:Moonlight Sonata (1st mov't)
3,4: 2 Mozart Minuets
4:Dreaming (Scumann)
5,6: 2 of Chopin Op. 10 Etudes. (partially)
7:Raindrop
8:Berceuse
More: working on some slow and easy pieces from the book 'the easiest book of piano classics."

On average, it took me about 2-3 practice days ( 2-3 Hours to sight-read well and memorize one of these pieces (some only partially.)


"...the luckiest man I know." - Arthur Rubinstein about himself and his love of performing.
Re: Ok, for adult beginners only... #415761
11/20/02 10:54 AM
11/20/02 10:54 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 235
Atlanta, Georgia, USA
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BeethBaChopin Offline
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Posts: 235
Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Updated report (new pieces added):
I can play the first 6 completely, and the rest partially. The list grows week after week.

1-Beeth: Moonlight Sonata (Mv't 1)
2-Beeth: Fur Elise
3-Chopin: Berceuse
4-Chopin: Raindrop
5-Schumman: Dreaming
6-Chopin :A theme from Chopin Op. 23
7-Chopin: A theme from Op. 66
8,9-Two of Chopin Etude Op. 10 (One is No 9)
10,11-Two of Mozart Minuets.


"...the luckiest man I know." - Arthur Rubinstein about himself and his love of performing.
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