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#414360 - 11/11/07 12:08 PM Have you ever written your own cadenza?  
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pianojerome Offline
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I just started working on Mozart's Concerto No. 14, K.449. There's already a cadenza written in, but I'd like to write my own.

Anyone else do this? Any tips?


Sam
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#414361 - 11/11/07 01:38 PM Re: Have you ever written your own cadenza?  
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C H O P I N Offline
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May I just ask, why do people write cadenzas? - is it the composer's wishes for you to do that? I'm interested about this, Sorry for my lack of knowledge

C H O P I N


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#414362 - 11/11/07 01:45 PM Re: Have you ever written your own cadenza?  
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I did my own oboe cadenza once. It was fantastic fun. Decide what is really top-notch about your playing and work that in.


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

#414363 - 11/11/07 01:57 PM Re: Have you ever written your own cadenza?  
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Well... I didn't completely write my own cadenza from scratch per se, but I wrote one while looking at other cadenzas for guidance if that counts. That was the most difficult composing I've ever done even though it was short. It was from a Beethoven Sonata, but I don't remember which. I'll try to dig it out later if I can find it.

My only "advice" would be to look at all other cadenzas for guidance, but I'm definitely no expert when it comes to composition.


Technical skills should never come before artistry. I think of technical ability as a necessary tool for extracting a truly moving performance from a sensitive interpretation. -Aviator1010110
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#414364 - 11/11/07 02:01 PM Re: Have you ever written your own cadenza?  
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I'm planning on writing my own cadenza as well, but first I need to study the huge amount of material I just received. Hopefully I'm a lot wiser on the subject in a while.

At the moment I can only advice you to remember that the cadenza comes between the dominant and the final tonic, which means that you should avoid the tonic as far as possible. If you include an authentic cadence to Eb-major, the game is over, because the cadenza has reached it goal. This means that you will have to modulate if you want to extend it to more than one prolonged dominant. My advice is to modulate away as far as possible as soon as possible, then work your way back to the original key. Start by mapping out the harmonic structure of the whole cadenza and where you want to include themes from the original movement. Once this is done, add to the harmonies diabolically difficult virtuoso textures, derived from material in the original movement (or just plain arpeggios if you can't come up with anything better), and you should end up with something that would classify as a cadenza...

#414365 - 11/11/07 02:07 PM Re: Have you ever written your own cadenza?  
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Cadenzas were originally to show off the performer's improvising skills as part of a larger piece, so yes, it is the composer's wish for the performer to make up a cadenza.

There are other places where one was expected to improvise something original. Some fermatas are opportunities, and many repeats were meant to be embellished, especially in slow movements.


Semipro Tech
#414366 - 11/11/07 04:31 PM Re: Have you ever written your own cadenza?  
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currawong Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by pianojerome:
I just started working on Mozart's Concerto No. 14, K.449. There's already a cadenza written in, but I'd like to write my own.

Anyone else do this? Any tips?
Yes, I've written a few - for the K491, the 3rd movement of K175 (there's a Mozart one for the 1st & 2nd mvts, but not for the 3rd), and I've worked on various possibilities for K467, but haven't performed that one. I have the complete Mozart cadenzas edited by Lili Kraus (it also has ones by her for the concertos that M didn't leave one for) and just examining all of Mozart's cadenzas gives plenty of ideas. Just experiment with the themes, figurations, and look at the way Mozart's are structured. Actually, what I did for the K491 was to improvise one every time I played it through, and it sort of settled into a prepared improvisation which I only wrote down some time after the performance!
You will also decide whether to make it as authentic as you can, or add a bit of pianojerome to the mix smile . Enjoy!


Du holde Kunst...
#414367 - 11/11/07 05:10 PM Re: Have you ever written your own cadenza?  
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I've written some for most of the Mozart concerti I've played and one for Beethoven 3 also. If I had any tips, I'd say to treat it like another development section. Use the material in the movement and ornament it, set it contrapuntally, transpose it to the opposite mode, etc.

If you can find it, get a copy of Godowsky's cadenza to Beethoven 4. It is absolutely devilish, but very clever.

#414368 - 11/11/07 07:42 PM Re: Have you ever written your own cadenza?  
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Just finished mine for the 1st movement of 467. I'm going to write one for the 3rd movement but that will be very (compositionally) simple - just a brief intro and an expansion on the idea of the C section of the Rondo. I'm pretty proud of the one I wrote for the 1st though.

#414369 - 11/11/07 09:11 PM Re: Have you ever written your own cadenza?  
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I have written my own cadenzas for mozart's 18th and 20th piano concertos first movements. I always try to write one when I can and give my own finger print on the music.

#414370 - 11/11/07 11:36 PM Re: Have you ever written your own cadenza?  
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Quote
Originally posted by Witold:
remember that the cadenza comes between the dominant and the final tonic, which means that you should avoid the tonic as far as possible.
I believe that should be "between the tonic six four and the dominant." Unless you are referring to the six four chord as a dominant, which is sometimes done. Just a technical point, with no bearing on the validity of the sound advice contained in your post.

#414371 - 11/12/07 12:03 AM Re: Have you ever written your own cadenza?  
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Wow, I'm glad to see so many people here playing their own cadenzas. Thanks for the suggestions -- very helpful.

I'm just beginning the 1st movement, so I'm not very familiar with the themes yet. A couple of months ago, my teacher played one of his own cadenzas for us, and pointed out that the theme he used (for a fugue!) is actually a very minor detail that was used by Mozart in a transition passage. He showed how such a tiny transition can become a big fugue in the cadenza. So that might be a way to go -- is to not take the most obvious themes, but rather something that otherwise wouldn't get much attention.

I do have one idea -- there are some neat sequence-like arpeggios in the 1st movement. Perhaps I could go Victor Borge and play the sequence all the way down to the bottom of the keys, then start all the way up at the top again, and go a few more repetitions before the closing trills. laugh It would be *very* over-the-top, but that's exactly why it would be humorous. If it's that extreme, then it wouldn't be boring -- the audience would chuckling, thinking, "WHEN is he going to stop!" and then when I'd start at the top of the keys again, they'd think: "Oh no! Is he going all the way down again?" And if I were to precede it with something very serious like a fugal passage, it would be all the funnier. laugh


Sam
#414372 - 11/12/07 08:25 AM Re: Have you ever written your own cadenza?  
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Wait Sam .. is the movement humorous after all .. or will you be contrasting a serious composition with an over the top humour interlude laugh

Kind of reminds me of Rachmaninoff's cadenza for Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsody no.2 .. emerging from the frenzy and ecstasy some awful melodrama and dissonances you've ever heard. Not to mention frightening too (with the glissandi and all).

Where is context here? laugh Doesn't music believe in context?? wink

#414373 - 11/12/07 12:45 PM Re: Have you ever written your own cadenza?  
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pianojerome Offline
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Well, Mozart's usually light-hearted already, especially in Eb Major.

People can only take serious stuff for so long. If you ever watch action movies, there's usually a snarky remark or some humorous incident, even in the most intense parts. (James Bond is good at that.) It's good to keep the spirits up.


Sam
#414374 - 11/12/07 01:05 PM Re: Have you ever written your own cadenza?  
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Quote
Originally posted by Brendan:
If you can find it, get a copy of Godowsky's cadenza to Beethoven 4. It is absolutely devilish, but very clever.
Yes, that's quite the tour de force.

Alkan wrote an extravagant over-the-top cadenza to Beethoven 3.


Jason
#414375 - 11/12/07 01:39 PM Re: Have you ever written your own cadenza?  
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Bassio Offline
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No Jason but he arranged the whole first movement for solo piano.

#414376 - 11/12/07 02:08 PM Re: Have you ever written your own cadenza?  
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Quote
Originally posted by Bassio:
No Jason but he arranged the whole first movement for solo piano.
But there is a separate cadenza which can be used in an orchestral performance. There's a recording of it on Symposium 1062, along with other Alkan miscellany.


Jason

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