Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!


SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Modern Piano Moving
Modern Piano Moving
(ad)
Virtual Sheet Music
Download Sheet Music Instantly
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Sheet Music...
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2017
(ad)
Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restorations and sales
Who's Online Now
106 registered members (AD10, accordeur, AlanB, aliao, Almaviva, alfredo capurso, 24 invisible), 1,827 guests, and 12 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#411530 - 12/17/07 07:00 PM Chord Attack  
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 24
David Grant Offline
Full Member
David Grant  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 24
Vancouver, BC, Canada
Can someone please explain clearly how to use the chord attack method as described in "Fundamentals of Piano Practice"?

Preferably it would be great to see a video of the technique in action.


Bio: quit Grade 4 RCM in 1992 at age 13. Restarted Grade 4 RCM in 2007 at age 28. Am working towards Grade 8 RCM exam.
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#411531 - 12/17/07 09:36 PM Re: Chord Attack  
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,925
John Citron Offline
3000 Post Club Member
John Citron  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,925
Haverhill, Massachusetts
I have the download. If you give the page numbers, I could read through it and perhaps explain it.

John


Nothing.
#411532 - 12/17/07 10:43 PM Re: Chord Attack  
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,753
jazzyprof Offline
2000 Post Club Member
jazzyprof  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,753
Ann Arbor, MI
A "chord attack" is when you play a sequence of notes as a chord. For example, consider the passage below: [Linked Image]
Look at the first right hand triplet, E G# C#. What is the fastest way to play this sequence? The fastest way is to play it as a chord with the indicated fingering. In a chord there is zero delay between the notes and so you are playing this triplet infinitely fast. You can then slow it down from infinitely fast by introducing a small delay between the fingers. Chord attacks help to attain velocity. They can be used on any series of notes that can be played as a chord.


"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP
#411533 - 12/18/07 12:55 AM Re: Chord Attack  
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 24
David Grant Offline
Full Member
David Grant  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 24
Vancouver, BC, Canada
I'd still like to actually hear someone playing the chord (or intervals), then slowing it down and introducing larger spaces between the notes.

Usually when I can't play something fast enough I just break it down into the most difficult intervals or 3-note sequences and try to figure out what the problem is and work on that. Same way I work on a piece, if 2 bars are causing me difficulty I play those over and over again rather than playing the whole piece.

I just don't get how this chord attack helps. I tried doing it and had the instructions in front of me but I couldn't figure it out.

I did try it with a sequence of 4 descending 32nd notes followed by a quarter note that were causing me trouble. I played all five notes as 5 32nd note chords at the same tempo that I would play the 32nd notes broken. It seemed to help, although I think mainly because playing it as a chord forced all my fingers to come down in unison, thus forcing my somewhat slow 4th finger to get some exercise and teaching it to play at that tempo.


Bio: quit Grade 4 RCM in 1992 at age 13. Restarted Grade 4 RCM in 2007 at age 28. Am working towards Grade 8 RCM exam.
(ad ) MusicNotes.com
sheet music search
#411534 - 12/18/07 02:33 AM Re: Chord Attack  
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
keyboardklutz  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
London, UK (though if it's Aug...
I just read C Chang's advice. It seems to boil down to 'dropping' on each note 1 of an Alberti Bass. I may do that sometimes. I got my video camera going yesterday. What would you like illustrating - your Haydn?


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

#411535 - 12/18/07 03:27 AM Re: Chord Attack  
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 24
David Grant Offline
Full Member
David Grant  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 24
Vancouver, BC, Canada
That would be awesome! Although I'm not sure if that is the best example for the chord attack (only because I don't quite understand the chord attack technique). Or maybe it is a good example, as it is quite different from the Alberti bass example Chang and others on the forums have mentioned.

What is "droppong"?


Bio: quit Grade 4 RCM in 1992 at age 13. Restarted Grade 4 RCM in 2007 at age 28. Am working towards Grade 8 RCM exam.
#411536 - 12/18/07 04:41 AM Re: Chord Attack  
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
keyboardklutz  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
London, UK (though if it's Aug...
I am having fun with it this morning. To understand early Haydn you need to know CPE Bach. He more or less created this style single-handedly (ha, ha). Haydn said as much himself. CPE once said he could imitate an argument and make it intelligible. That's what this is. Treat it like an opera duet. The runs your having trouble with are the husband (master) complaining/ordering. The thirds in bar 1 are wife/servants laughing at him. I can really hear the laughter.

I've changed the dynamics from bar 17. The A - G - E tune is dad/hubby remonstrating (so mf) the thirds wife/kiddies/servants refusing (so p). Obviously this also means big dynamic changes in the development (after the repeat sign). I know this must sound awfully far-fetched but I'm quite convinced.

Again this isn't much help as I'm sure if you did agree you'd find making the changes difficult. I may get to a music library today. If I do I'll search out an urxtext copy. I'm off on holiday tomorrow for 2 weeks. If I can't video it today I'm afraid you'll have to wait.


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

#411537 - 12/18/07 05:25 AM Re: Chord Attack  
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
keyboardklutz  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Well there you go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf7-UVt8Bcc

Only a couple of glitches. You see what I mean about it being clavichord music? Even I had strength problems with some trills. Though a few days would have sorted that out.

The spikes (what they call strokes) are accents not staccato though they are that as well. The 2 bar coda I do louder on repeat. Softer to end seems silly.


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

#411538 - 12/18/07 10:26 AM Re: Chord Attack  
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,753
jazzyprof Offline
2000 Post Club Member
jazzyprof  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,753
Ann Arbor, MI
Quote
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
Well there you go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf7-UVt8Bcc
kk: I'm not quite sure I see the connection to chord attacks. Perhaps you could explain a bit more.

DG: This may explain why chord attacks work. There are two components to achieving velocity. The first is mental...thinking quickly what the next notes are. The second is physical...getting your fingers quickly to the next notes. With chord attacks you've practiced thinking of the next cluster of notes as a chord and so you are sensing the entire sequence of notes at once. Next, you've practiced getting your hand in position over that sequence of notes as a chord. This way your fingers are already over the notes they are meant to play when it's time to play them. You don't have to think about getting each finger to its next note: it's already there. Your ultimate speed is then limited by how quickly you can shift your hand to the next sequence of notes, such as the second triplet in the example above, with your hand already formed in its "as if chord" position.


"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP
#411539 - 12/18/07 11:16 AM Re: Chord Attack  
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 872
drumour Offline
500 Post Club Member
drumour  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 872
Scotland
I think two very different things are being discussed here. One seems to be a technique for playing chords by dropping on them - I make no comment about that. The other seems to be about a way of practising a broken chord passage by, at some stages of the practising process, playing the notes simultaneously and not broken. I have heard it claimed (I think it was part of Abby Whiteside's woolly thinking) that by doing this you are playing the broken chord at its fastest and that you merely have to "slow this down" to achieve the required effect. This I'm far from convinced about. But, to turn it round a bit, here's a question: how do you expect to play such a pattern as written if you can't produce a rhythmic, in tempo rendition of a block-chord version? By being able to do so, you can be sure that fingers will be there with time to spare for most of the notes.

I would also recommend practising the above passage by taking the non-melody notes together as an interval.


John


Vasa inania multum strepunt.
#411540 - 12/18/07 12:17 PM Re: Chord Attack  
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
keyboardklutz  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Jazzyprof, no connection I think. As I said earlier 'chord attack' just seem to be using arm weight every beat for Alberti (Chang uses Alberti as an example) and such like. DG is trying to learn a run from his grade 6. I don't think 'chord attack' is going to help.

DG, I checked with an urtext. There are no dynamic markings at all. So, I obviously disagree with your editor.


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

#411541 - 12/18/07 04:33 PM Re: Chord Attack  
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 24
David Grant Offline
Full Member
David Grant  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 24
Vancouver, BC, Canada
keyboardklutz: thanks for sharing that! I'm glad the piece has generated some interest. Now I have something to shoot for. I particularly liked your loud/soft variations during the bars 35-46 type of sections. I think the main thing I need to work on is the dynamics and memory, more so than the 32nd notes now (which I can get 80% of the time).

One thing that noticed the other day was that I have an easier time with the 32nd note sequences when my fingers are on the keys, reader to fire. For example bar 14 and 46 I normally find particularly easy. Bars 57 and 64 are the hardest. My teacher noticed that on bar 57 I tend to just move/cross my pink to the D rather than moving my entire hand over to GCBA and thumb on G quickly before playing.

Another thing that has helped has just been repeating these 32nd note sequences over and over again. Also playing just the 543 fingers helps too, since it is the 4th finger that is slow/weak. Somehow just doing 543 help isolate 4 more and forces it to play.

Sheet music for divertimento (from conservatory book, dynamics are the editor's):
http://www.box.net/shared/ibrnli9dgo


Bio: quit Grade 4 RCM in 1992 at age 13. Restarted Grade 4 RCM in 2007 at age 28. Am working towards Grade 8 RCM exam.
#411542 - 12/18/07 04:56 PM Re: Chord Attack  
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
keyboardklutz  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Bars 57 and 64 you need to lift your wrist (not your hand) a little. The hand will follow. Place the finger 5 on the D with the wrist. If your hand was relaxed (hanging from your wrist) when you 'dragged' it, your fingers will be altogether and on the right keys.

P.S. Can you hear the laughing?


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

#411543 - 12/18/07 05:08 PM Re: Chord Attack  
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,925
John Citron Offline
3000 Post Club Member
John Citron  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,925
Haverhill, Massachusetts
I'm working on this sonata right now myself. I'll post a recording of it as played on the clavichord; bumps and all.

I also have the Urtext edition of the sonatas all without dynamic markings so I've had to come up with some of my own to make the music work.

I think of the 32nd notes as an upbeat to the following measure. This helps to solidify the direction that the hand needs to go in order to play the first beat in the next measure cleanly and slightly stressed to bring it out.

I've used the blocked chords in the past to firm up uncertainties with hand positions. By first playing the passage as chords, your hand gets a feel of where it should be. After I'm comfortable with the positioning, I then go back and play the notes as written. This method is partularly helpful when there are triplet passages such as those in Mozart's Piano Sonata in C-minor.

John


Nothing.
#411544 - 12/20/07 04:45 AM Re: Chord Attack  
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
keyboardklutz  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
London, UK (though if it's Aug...
DG, don't miss the John Citron Show:

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/32/5568.html#000022

Hopefully he PM'd you.


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

#411545 - 12/20/07 09:29 AM Re: Chord Attack  
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 41
DestinysPuppet Offline
Full Member
DestinysPuppet  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 41
Argentina
I have found that chord attack is useful for those kind of passages because it takes the focus off the fingers. After practising something like that (or an Alberti bass) with chord attack, my hand is able to reproduce it with minimum movement (of the fingers, the hand, etc) but with all of the arm involved (ie, my fingers don't move as much, but my hand and arm are much more involved). Thus, my hand is more relaxed and I can play it at speed without generating tension. As Chang points out, once your arm and hands figure out how you should play it fast, you should reproduce the same movements when practicing slowly. Otherwise it's of no use.


Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World) our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping on Jansen Artist Piano Benches
(ad)
Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


(ad)
Pianoteq
Grotrian Concert
Royal
for Pianoteq out now
What's Hot!!
Why Do You Play The Piano?
-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
-------------------
Piano Classified Ads
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Brian Crain - Song for Sienna at 3:10 / measure 73
by TonyDIGITAL. 06/26/17 09:02 AM
How I encourage myself
by ManishP. 06/26/17 02:34 AM
Arpeggio note with melody note?
by ManishP. 06/26/17 01:47 AM
Binaural Upright Piano
by Jonky Ponky. 06/26/17 12:57 AM
(ad)
Sheet Music Plus
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics180,460
Posts2,639,120
Members88,189
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Check It Out!
There's a lot more to Piano World than just the forums.
Check It Out!
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0