Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
What's Hot!!
Mr. PianoWorld - the full interview
-------------------
European Tour for Piano Lovers
JOIN US FOR THE TOUR!
--------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2018
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


Who's Online Now
97 registered members (8ude, bennevis, Bluegrassdog, anamnesis, BethRH, Animisha, ajames, AnnInMiami, anotherscott, Agent88, 21 invisible), 1,719 guests, and 5 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Do you ever use the middle pedal? #409756
04/04/06 12:55 AM
04/04/06 12:55 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 9,868
pianojerome Offline OP
9000 Post Club Member
pianojerome  Offline OP
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 9,868
That's the pedal that will hold any notes that are already pressed down when you push the pedal, but it doesn't hold any notes played after you push the pedal.

Read <a href="http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/3/1920.html" target="new_window">here</a> to learn how this pedal works in a grand piano.


Do you ever use it? Personally, I've never used it in any repertoire.

How would it be notated in the score?


Sam
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Re: Do you ever use the middle pedal? #409757
04/04/06 01:22 AM
04/04/06 01:22 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 21,514
Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
Gold Subscriber
BruceD  Offline
Gold Subscriber
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 21,514
Victoria, BC
Sam :

The only piece that comes to mind where I specifically use the sostenuto pedal is in Debussy's "La Cathédrale Engloutie", bars 28 through 41. I use the sostenuto to hold the low C, while changing the damper pedal on the four-note "organ chords" in both hands.

Being accusomted to playing that section with a sostenuto, it would really take some adjustment to play it without it, and I would feel quite compromised if I had to play this section on a piano without a sostenuto.

It's the only piece that comes to mind where I feel I really *need* to have a sostenuto pedal.

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Re: Do you ever use the middle pedal? #409758
04/04/06 03:55 AM
04/04/06 03:55 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,846
RHUL
M
Max W Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Max W  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,846
RHUL
I use it the Rach op.33 #4 - there is a passage with a big chord, followed by some staccato chords - but I don't like using the pedal to wash it all together and its too big to hold with one hand, so I use the sostenuto for consistancy (as every other time the motif is used, I play it without pedal). The etude is sounding more and more like some kind of hunting trip (the motif is like a horn - hence why I don't like pedalling it)

Re: Do you ever use the middle pedal? #409759
04/04/06 05:20 AM
04/04/06 05:20 AM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 293
North Carolina
Waterfall Offline
Full Member
Waterfall  Offline
Full Member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 293
North Carolina
I have used it in Debussy (I think Cathedrale Engloutie, but maybe one other piece, too?) and also for a Liszt Consolation.

(ad ) MusicNotes.com
sheet music search
Re: Do you ever use the middle pedal? #409760
04/04/06 05:30 AM
04/04/06 05:30 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 420
australia
M
mmmmaestro007 Offline
Full Member
mmmmaestro007  Offline
Full Member
M
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 420
australia
since i have started to use it recently (and for me it doesn't happen easily) i discover more and more scores on which i can use it- Rach's Vocalise, Clair de Lune, Rach's C sharp minor prelude to mention a few smile


"musical training is a more potent instrument than any other because rhythym and harmony find their way into the inner places of the soul" -Plato
Re: Do you ever use the middle pedal? #409761
04/04/06 06:06 AM
04/04/06 06:06 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,846
RHUL
M
Max W Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Max W  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,846
RHUL
The great thing about it is that you can use it in conjunction with the sustain - very interesting effects can be created in this way.

Re: Do you ever use the middle pedal? #409762
04/04/06 06:12 AM
04/04/06 06:12 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,097
Helsinki, Finland
F
fnork Offline
2000 Post Club Member
fnork  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
F
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,097
Helsinki, Finland
If you take a look at Carl Vines first piano sonata, it has sostenuto markings in several places.

In the first measure, you press down five bass notes without sounding them, you hold the notes with the sostenuto pedal, then start playing. Every second measure in the introduction, you play two of the notes that you pressed down silently - since you are still pressing down the sostenuto pedal, it gives the effect that the low bass notes keep sounding, while the other notes in the middle register aren't sustained. Here's a recording, so you can hear how it sounds: www.roberthenry.org

Re: Do you ever use the middle pedal? #409763
04/04/06 07:30 AM
04/04/06 07:30 AM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,161
South Jersey
DameMyra Offline
2000 Post Club Member
DameMyra  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,161
South Jersey
I've used it in the Shostakovich P & F in F minor.


Private Piano Teacher
MTNA/NJMTA/SJMTA
Re: Do you ever use the middle pedal? #409764
04/04/06 08:55 AM
04/04/06 08:55 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,343
Dallas, TX
C
ChrisKeys Offline
1000 Post Club Member
ChrisKeys  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
C
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,343
Dallas, TX
I use it in several Debussy pieces like La Cathédrale Engloutie, La Puerta del Vino (both are preludes), and in the opening movement of Pour le Piano.

Chris

Re: Do you ever use the middle pedal? #409765
04/04/06 09:02 AM
04/04/06 09:02 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,862
Kansas
apple* Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
apple*  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,862
Kansas
it's nice to play a bass note (kind of like adding organ pedal) and sustain it over 3 or 4 measures) - i just write it in.


accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
Re: Do you ever use the middle pedal? #409766
04/04/06 09:07 AM
04/04/06 09:07 AM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 535
New Hampshire
Shortcircuit85 Offline
500 Post Club Member
Shortcircuit85  Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 535
New Hampshire
What a great question. I've always assumed it is only good for some funky jazz technique or otherwise which I know nothing about. I'm suprised how many people seem to use it in their pieces.


Andrew - Shortcircuit85

If you were not sane, you would never misunderstand this question or the consequences of not comprehending its meaning.
Re: Do you ever use the middle pedal? #409767
04/04/06 09:41 AM
04/04/06 09:41 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,057
8ude Online content
2000 Post Club Member
8ude  Online Content
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,057
I use it here and there - I used it a bunch when I was accompanying some numbers from the Messiah - it is useful for simulating an organ pedal point without blurring the upper lines.


What you are is an accident of birth. What I am, I am through my own efforts. There have been a thousand princes and there will be a thousand more. There is one Beethoven.
Re: Do you ever use the middle pedal? #409768
04/04/06 09:41 AM
04/04/06 09:41 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,846
RHUL
M
Max W Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Max W  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,846
RHUL
Quote
Originally posted by Chris W:
I use it in several Debussy pieces like La Cathédrale Engloutie, La Puerta del Vino (both are preludes), and in the opening movement of Pour le Piano.

Chris
Debussy seems to suit the pedal quite a bit then!I use it as much as possible in the 2nd piece from Images 1 - whenever there is a long sustained bass note that I can hold with the pedal, so that it doesn't get lost under the chords above (as I don't believe Debussy would have put the note value for so long, if he didn't intend for it to be audible). Especially when the dynamics are quiet.

Re: Do you ever use the middle pedal? #409769
04/04/06 09:51 AM
04/04/06 09:51 AM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 393
Westchester County, New York
J
Jim Frazee Offline
Full Member
Jim Frazee  Offline
Full Member
J
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 393
Westchester County, New York
And, FWIW, in Clair de Lune, E flat octave pedal tone, then Eflat & Bflat pedal tone.


PianoPerfection
Teacher, performer, technician
Westchester County, NY
Re: Do you ever use the middle pedal? #409770
04/04/06 09:55 AM
04/04/06 09:55 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,846
RHUL
M
Max W Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Max W  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,846
RHUL
Is that the part at the start with chords and a crescendo, before the big arpeggios?

Re: Do you ever use the middle pedal? #409771
04/04/06 10:24 AM
04/04/06 10:24 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 21,514
Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
Gold Subscriber
BruceD  Offline
Gold Subscriber
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 21,514
Victoria, BC
Quote
Originally posted by Waterfall:
I have used it in Debussy (I think Cathedrale Engloutie, but maybe one other piece, too?) and also for a Liszt Consolation.
Thanks for the reminder: I sometimes - but not always - use it for the Liszt Consolation Number 3.

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Re: Do you ever use the middle pedal? #409772
04/04/06 10:50 AM
04/04/06 10:50 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 199
Pacific Northwest
F
frida1 Offline
Full Member
frida1  Offline
Full Member
F
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 199
Pacific Northwest
I use it in Debussy quite a bit, including Cathedrale and Claire de Lune. Once I saw a performance by a Debussy specialist, and noticed she used the sustenuto very often.

Re: Do you ever use the middle pedal? #409773
04/04/06 12:05 PM
04/04/06 12:05 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 206
Belgium
Anima Offline
Full Member
Anima  Offline
Full Member
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 206
Belgium
You can also use it for stuff like the lower C in Rach's 23/7 (cmin)

Before u start playing, press down the C without sounding it and then press in the sostenuto pedal.

Re: Do you ever use the middle pedal? #409774
04/04/06 12:16 PM
04/04/06 12:16 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,232
Santiago, Chile
anor Offline
1000 Post Club Member
anor  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,232
Santiago, Chile
mostly on Bach smile


ss ao lr ue dt on si .u dq ar no on ra qd u. is no td eu rl oa ss
Re: Do you ever use the middle pedal? #409775
04/04/06 12:20 PM
04/04/06 12:20 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 634
Romney WV
L'echange Offline
500 Post Club Member
L'echange  Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 634
Romney WV
I use it every day.


"Beauty is unbearable, drives us to despair, offering us for a minute the glimpse of an eternity that we should like to stretch out over the whole of time."

-Albert Camus,

Jim
Re: Do you ever use the middle pedal? #409776
04/04/06 12:49 PM
04/04/06 12:49 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 314
S
Silent Thoughts Offline
Full Member
Silent Thoughts  Offline
Full Member
S
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 314
I also use it in Rachmaninoff's Op. 33 No. 4, as well as his Op. 32 No. 10 (in the middle section, so as not to build up too much of a crescendo too early on with all those chords while still retaining clarity). I think the middle pedal is VERY underused, and I always look for new places to utilize it. It can be very tricky sometimes, though - I think it requires more practiced as opposed to just intuition (which is how most people use the right pedal).

Re: Do you ever use the middle pedal? #409777
04/04/06 01:33 PM
04/04/06 01:33 PM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 298
Marlow, Buckinghamshire, Engla...
Gill the Piano Offline
Full Member
Gill the Piano  Offline
Full Member
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 298
Marlow, Buckinghamshire, Engla...
It's useful in the Golliwog's Cakewalk by Debussy where you have the lyrical 'Tristan' chords in the bass (sustained legato) and the golliwog's 'laugh' over the top.


Piano tuner 23 years.
Musica lux in tenebris...
Re: Do you ever use the middle pedal? #409778
04/04/06 02:20 PM
04/04/06 02:20 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 3,886
San Francisco
whippen boy Offline
3000 Post Club Member
whippen boy  Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 3,886
San Francisco
I use it in Debussy's Jardins sous la pluie. If you look at score, you will see there is a sustained low note several pages in; everything else is semi-detached 16th notes (I don't pedal those at all). I "set" the low note with the middle pedal (with my right foot) before the piece begins, and then use the una corda with my left foot. As soon as the low note finishes, I move my foot over to its normal place at the sustain pedal.

There is a similar situation in the middle section of Debussy's Doctor Gradus ad Parnassum; this one is extra tricky because I use all three pedals simultaneously.

Re: Do you ever use the middle pedal? #409779
04/04/06 02:54 PM
04/04/06 02:54 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 220
Switzerland
iNBi Offline
Full Member
iNBi  Offline
Full Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 220
Switzerland
I prefer using the right pedal only and cleaning certain higher sounds while keeping the base by going from full to partial pedal and back and so on

dont really need the middle one

Re: Do you ever use the middle pedal? #409780
04/04/06 03:29 PM
04/04/06 03:29 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 607
Montreal Canada
rockpeter Offline
500 Post Club Member
rockpeter  Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 607
Montreal Canada
How about Für Elise at Bar 79 to 83 ? The A note in the original score seems to indicate a middle pedal.
However I use the sustain in practise.

Peter


Ok..Ok... If you don't want your Steinway give it to me !!!!
Re: Do you ever use the middle pedal? #409781
04/04/06 05:00 PM
04/04/06 05:00 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 716
Weatherford, Texas
J
jeffylube Offline
500 Post Club Member
jeffylube  Offline
500 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 716
Weatherford, Texas
The sostenuto pedal is often used in the opening of the Waldstein Sonata, and usually you can find other parts of Beethoven's sonatas that the pedal could be of use.

But for the most part, you won't find markings from a composer to use it except for mostly modern works, Debussy to present.

Re: Do you ever use the middle pedal? #409782
04/04/06 07:18 PM
04/04/06 07:18 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 420
australia
M
mmmmaestro007 Offline
Full Member
mmmmaestro007  Offline
Full Member
M
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 420
australia
Chris [/qb][/QUOTE]Debussy seems to suit the pedal quite a bit then!I use it as much as possible in the 2nd piece from Images 1 - whenever there is a long sustained bass note that I can hold with the pedal, so that it doesn't get lost under the chords above (as I don't believe Debussy would have put the note value for so long, if he didn't intend for it to be audible). Especially when the dynamics are quiet. [/QB][/QUOTE]

it's interesting to note there was no such thing as a sostenuto pedal in Debussey's day but a lot of his scores suit it perfectly-maybe he knew it was on the drawing board! smile


"musical training is a more potent instrument than any other because rhythym and harmony find their way into the inner places of the soul" -Plato
Re: Do you ever use the middle pedal? #409783
04/04/06 07:48 PM
04/04/06 07:48 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 353
xyz2004slc Offline
Full Member
xyz2004slc  Offline
Full Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 353
Don't the Ravel left hand concerto and other left hand works require sostenuto?

Re: Do you ever use the middle pedal? #409784
04/04/06 09:25 PM
04/04/06 09:25 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,047
Minneapolis, Minnesota
tomasino Offline
2000 Post Club Member
tomasino  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,047
Minneapolis, Minnesota
I've been working on the Ginastera Sonata #1 for some time, and there are many places where the middle pedal would get me over some transparancy issues.

It's a challenge I'm facing. I really ought to figure it out, and use it, rather than kveching about it.

Tomorrow morning I'll practice it a bit. Maybe I'll bite the bullet.

Tomasomp


"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do so with all thy might." Ecclesiastes 9:10

Re: Do you ever use the middle pedal? #409785
04/06/06 09:47 AM
04/06/06 09:47 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 388
California
P
prokofiev Offline
Full Member
prokofiev  Offline
Full Member
P
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 388
California
The sostenuto pedal helps on one of the Liszt consolations.

I use the pedal not too infrequently in Rachmaninoff.


prok
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

New In Our Store!
New In Our Store!
key racks with hand sanitizer
Attn: Piano Teachers, Music Teachers, Studios!

A rack made from actual piano keys, with individual hand sanitizer for each student!
Tons more music related products in our online store!
New Topics - Multiple Forums
P125 --sustain ??
by engineerjoel. 09/24/18 01:27 PM
Jansen vs. Maestro vs. Infinity piano bench?
by Bluegrassdog. 09/24/18 11:55 AM
Minecraft main theme on piano
by pianoten. 09/24/18 11:34 AM
Kawai MP7SE user review
by Steve Rose. 09/24/18 10:38 AM
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Steingraeber
Forum Statistics
Forums40
Topics187,467
Posts2,747,526
Members91,084
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2018 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1.1