Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner How to do fast octaves

That's impressive. Too bad he butchered the piece. :rolleyes:

BTW, fast repetitions aren't that difficult. It feels more like twitching than deliberate movements. I first learned how to get up to that speed by mimicking Cryptopsy's drummer...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sB_wCYF4BCM&fmt=18

(The blast beat at the beginning is NOT the fast part! Check out :30.)

He?

He??? :rolleyes: Butchered???? :rolleyes:

Btw, too bad we don't have video footage of this thrilling recording...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzZVcP8XsTk

No it isn't, she's doing them from the wrist, the two stills show that.
That's not very straight is it? Where did I post I can't do octaves?

That lady will damage herself with a posture like that.

Looking at stills tells you nothing about the motion. Watch it in motion and keep an eye on her forearm. It's bouncing up and down. Not as much as her hand, of course. Think of it like a whipping motion.

Another thing I learned from Flo Mounier about fast repetitions is to employ some macromovement (the word I want to use is escaping me, so I made one up), or what Taubman would call "shaping". If the hand going up and down at the wrist is a micromovement in 16th notes, then you could smoothly vary the wrist angle and/or employ circular arm motion (macromovement) at a quarter note pace. This relieves tension as you're not repeating the motion from the same exact position every time. It also helps endurance. Here's a visual...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_1RZcM3zso&fmt=18 (look at 1:03)

No, look at the angle of the wrist/forearm in the stills. The first is before key depression the second after. It's all in the wrist. And to be perfectly clear the arm doesn't 'bounce'. Try dropping a piece of meat on the table.

What's this strange new fetish you have for dropping meat on a table? Dropping a dead slab of meat on a table is different than dropping a living hand on a lever. Again, two stills tell you nothing about the motion. Watch the video, her forearm is moving up and down plain as the eye can see. Now, whether the motion starts at the forearm and the hand reacts similar to a whip, or the motion starts at the wrist and affects the forearm accordingly, is anyone's guess. Considering Tuabman emphasizes the forearm, I'd wager it's option 1. But you can ask Miss Golansky yourself for a clarification.

And try shaping.

As the first still is at the top of the motion and the second still at the bottom it tells you what you need to know about the motion i.e. no change in position of the forearm.

It is important as, following her advice, the less experienced players will try to use their arm for faster octaves and damage themselves. She should have pointed that out but she (and you) seems to be under the delusion she is using her forearm.

Also I'd jettison the 'whipping' idea - that's no way to treat a hand.

I said I think it could be either way. I'm only guessing she's using forearm because Taubman generally focuses on the forearm, and because she even demonstrated the trademark Taubman forearm rotation right before speeding it up. For all we know it could be a mixture of both. The only "delusion" here is your stubborn fixation on two stills, and a refusal to watch the whole motion in action.

I have reverted the entire video to its stills. There is no more to see (outside of your imagination). Maybe you need to get some sleep bro.

I give up. You win. Have fun making your Taubman shrine.

I think when people have a problem with Taubman, it's more an issue with the attitude and wording than the technique itself.

Taubman's principles are solid. But her ideas are often presented in a way that suggests that she is the One True Way. People tend to become disciples or followers of Taubman/Golandsky, and they see it as being in opposition to all the other schools of piano playing out there.

What I was trying to show in the video I posted is that physiologically sound and beautiful technique has been around for a long time. Taubman does not have a Gnostic insight into piano technique, she just happens to be right, like several others.

The other problem is that they use phrases like "Perfect Octaves" and "Perfect Double Thirds."

If you watch the "Perfect Double Thirds" video, she describes thirds as having a double rotation.

The technique she describes works perfectly for the double thirds passage in the first Brahms concerto, where the tempo is moderate and a big sound is required, but what about the Chopin double thirds etude, or the opening of Beethoven Op. 2#3? There quite simply isn't time for a double rotation, so what then?

Then there's this little gem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16LNzkafBWw

It's a few words on fast playing that does not contain any fast playing! And what kind of fast playing are we talking about? Scale passages? Octaves? Different types of technical figurations (Chopin first prelude, Prokofiev Harp prelude, Rachmaninoff Op. 39#1?)

Again, what she's saying is correct - but she's addressing a very specific kind of problem, but there are other types of fast passages as well. She mentions that the technique many people use destroys legato, but what if you don't want to play legato? Does the technique remain the same or does it change? Obviously, some aspects remain the same while others change - but those are the kinds of issues that tend to be overlooked or glazed over in Taubman's work. (And yes, I've watched the complete set of tapes several times.)

I must admit I can't help laughing when I think of Gould being able to teach the physical aspects of piano playing in 30 minutes whilst Golansky and co need 20 hours of DVD!

If we are to learn from anyone :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xjiIlc5VRI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kv6v8Boh94

That's just great, but I'm not so sure it has much to teach the merely mortal.

I'd agree he is naturally gifted, but knowing his practice methods may be enlightening.

In that case what are his practice methods?

I don't know but at least you can visibly notice the primary motion comes from the wrist joint.

The absolutisms are marketing, that's all. Another problem is that people are judging it based on excerpts. Of course you didn't see her playing fast in that clip. It was edited.

As far as Alexei Grynyuk goes, instead of worshiping his technique and doubting yourselves, why don't you try to figure out ways to achieve it? My jaw dropped when I first heard Cryptopsy, but once I got over that, I made progress. Perhaps some people have faster twitch mechanisms genetically, but you'll never know unless you try to push your boundaries. I couldn't move as fast as Flo Mounier initially, but I eventually got there through practice and persistence. Quick tip: start with short bursts--doubles, triples, quadruples... and build up.