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How to do fast octaves #407327
01/17/09 12:14 PM
01/17/09 12:14 PM
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keyboardklutz Offline OP
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Ignore all the hogwash.
Quote
Originally posted by Discotheque:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=qwY-pDnmSiE

Try dropping a slab of meat on a table - see how much it rebounds! Notice at the end the fast octaves are done traditionally (a la Kullak) from a loose wrist - her forearm doesn't move. [Linked Image] [Linked Image]


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

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Re: How to do fast octaves #407328
01/17/09 12:40 PM
01/17/09 12:40 PM
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You should post a video showing us how fast octaves are done, kbk. thumb


Houston, Texas
Re: How to do fast octaves #407329
01/17/09 12:45 PM
01/17/09 12:45 PM
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Basel, Switzerland
pianovirus Offline
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kk, what are you trying to say? The wrist octaves in the "Minimize" part look good, but I didn't see the connection to the part before, as the octaves there came from the forearm. Both techniques are fine if used to realize the appropriate (different) musical goals.

One more thing - I don't like videos that only show things in slow-motion; she should have demonstrated some fast octave passages in the end.

Re: How to do fast octaves #407330
01/17/09 01:01 PM
01/17/09 01:01 PM
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pianovirus you're correct. There is no connection between the 'minimize' part and the rest - it is not the same (stiff) technique 'minimized', it is a totally different technique; one first delineated by Kullak.

Loki, it is a very good example fast octaves. Why would I post my own?


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http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

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Re: How to do fast octaves #407331
01/17/09 01:04 PM
01/17/09 01:04 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by pianovirus:
One more thing - I don't like videos that only show things in slow-motion; she should have demonstrated some fast octave passages in the end.
You mean fast passages using the forearm?


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

Re: How to do fast octaves #407332
01/17/09 01:32 PM
01/17/09 01:32 PM
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pianovirus Offline
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Quote

There is no connection between the 'minimize' part and the rest - it is not the same (stiff) technique 'minimized', it is a totally different technique


I agree.

Quote

You mean fast passages using the forearm?


No, I mean fast passages using wrist and fingers - in the video she only did rather slow ones. I don't think that forearm movement is good for fast octaves (it's good for other things, of course). The faster the movement, the more constrained the choice of technique - in this case, the main action would need to come from the wrist and fingers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ep0tWVn3Yjw#t=5m

Re: How to do fast octaves #407333
01/17/09 01:43 PM
01/17/09 01:43 PM
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I thought the scale at the end was pretty fast, though she's no Cziffra. Actually, watching again, I take that back - her octaves aren't that fast. Still, they require a good technique.


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

Re: How to do fast octaves #407334
01/17/09 02:11 PM
01/17/09 02:11 PM
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"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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Re: How to do fast octaves #407335
01/17/09 02:20 PM
01/17/09 02:20 PM
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Fascinating. If you watch closely, though his forearms are involved, the octaves come from the wrist. This is obviously pre his sabbatical - I doubt he did arpeggios with rubber fingers after.


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http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

Re: How to do fast octaves #407336
01/17/09 02:24 PM
01/17/09 02:24 PM
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Victoria, BC
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What surprises me about the Horowitz slow-motion octaves is how extensive his movements are towards and away from the fall-board. Would the playing not be more efficient (yeah! he needs to be more efficient!) - would there not be less in and out movement - if his fingertips were more or less lined up with the front edge of the black keys?

Regards,


BruceD
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Estonia 190
Re: How to do fast octaves #407337
01/17/09 02:28 PM
01/17/09 02:28 PM
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Kansas
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what beautiful beautiful technique he has..

watching his fingers so precisely and gracefully swirl as he descended the keyboard was incredible.


accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, ├Ľun (apple in Estonian)
Re: How to do fast octaves #407338
01/17/09 02:29 PM
01/17/09 02:29 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 173
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By the rivers of alcohol..
Re: How to do fast octaves #407339
01/17/09 02:34 PM
01/17/09 02:34 PM
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Double fantastic. But is it art?


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http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

Re: How to do fast octaves #407340
01/17/09 03:31 PM
01/17/09 03:31 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
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Texas
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Quote
Originally posted by Kreisler:
Looks a bit like this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lT6H-ERo-rk
In the second half of the video, is that Chopin Op. 10 No. 8?


Houston, Texas
Re: How to do fast octaves #407341
01/17/09 05:57 PM
01/17/09 05:57 PM
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IIRC, it is Op. 10-8.


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Re: How to do fast octaves #407342
01/17/09 08:35 PM
01/17/09 08:35 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,214
San Francisco, CA
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As Commander Whitehead used to say: It's all in the wrist...

Re: How to do fast octaves #407343
01/17/09 09:06 PM
01/17/09 09:06 PM
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That was fast???

BTW, take a closer look. Her forearm IS moving up and down at the end (which is the same clip as shown in the beginning).

Re: How to do fast octaves #407344
01/17/09 09:10 PM
01/17/09 09:10 PM
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Texas
Loki Offline
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Speaking of fast octaves...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRUnEuFPcFY


Houston, Texas
Re: How to do fast octaves #407345
01/17/09 09:11 PM
01/17/09 09:11 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by pianovirus:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ep0tWVn3Yjw#t=5m
BASTARD!!!!!!!!!! eek eek eek eek

So THAT's how he pulls off those ridiculously fast octaves. He's actually alternating the pinky and ring finger. Clever sonofabitch!!!!! thumb

Re: How to do fast octaves #407346
01/17/09 10:01 PM
01/17/09 10:01 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
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United Kingdom
J
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Let me get this straight, you're posting a video about how to do this, yet you cannot do it yourself?

Re: How to do fast octaves #407347
01/17/09 10:19 PM
01/17/09 10:19 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by Loki:
Speaking of fast octaves...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRUnEuFPcFY
That's impressive. Too bad he butchered the piece. :rolleyes:

BTW, fast repetitions aren't that difficult. It feels more like twitching than deliberate movements. I first learned how to get up to that speed by mimicking Cryptopsy's drummer...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sB_wCYF4BCM&fmt=18

(The blast beat at the beginning is NOT the fast part! Check out :30.)

Re: How to do fast octaves #407348
01/17/09 11:03 PM
01/17/09 11:03 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by jscomposer:
That's impressive. Too bad he butchered the piece. :rolleyes:
He? laugh


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Re: How to do fast octaves #407349
01/18/09 12:39 AM
01/18/09 12:39 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
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Basel, Switzerland
pianovirus Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Horowitzian:
Quote
Originally posted by jscomposer:
[b]That's impressive. Too bad he butchered the piece. :rolleyes:
He? laugh [/b]
He??? :rolleyes: Butchered???? :rolleyes:

Btw, too bad we don't have video footage of this thrilling recording...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzZVcP8XsTk

Re: How to do fast octaves #407350
01/18/09 02:59 AM
01/18/09 02:59 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by jscomposer:
BTW, take a closer look. Her forearm IS moving up and down at the end (which is the same clip as shown in the beginning).
No it isn't, she's doing them from the wrist, the two stills show that.
Quote
Originally posted by JustAnotherPianist:
Let me get this straight, you're posting a video about how to do this, yet you cannot do it yourself?
That's not very straight is it? Where did I post I can't do octaves?

Quote
Originally posted by Loki:
Speaking of fast octaves...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRUnEuFPcFY
That lady will damage herself with a posture like that.


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

Re: How to do fast octaves #407351
01/18/09 04:41 AM
01/18/09 04:41 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
Quote
Originally posted by jscomposer:
[b]BTW, take a closer look. Her forearm IS moving up and down at the end (which is the same clip as shown in the beginning).
No it isn't, she's doing them from the wrist, the two stills show that. [/b]
Looking at stills tells you nothing about the motion. Watch it in motion and keep an eye on her forearm. It's bouncing up and down. Not as much as her hand, of course. Think of it like a whipping motion.

Another thing I learned from Flo Mounier about fast repetitions is to employ some macromovement (the word I want to use is escaping me, so I made one up), or what Taubman would call "shaping". If the hand going up and down at the wrist is a micromovement in 16th notes, then you could smoothly vary the wrist angle and/or employ circular arm motion (macromovement) at a quarter note pace. This relieves tension as you're not repeating the motion from the same exact position every time. It also helps endurance. Here's a visual...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_1RZcM3zso&fmt=18 (look at 1:03)

Re: How to do fast octaves #407352
01/18/09 04:50 AM
01/18/09 04:50 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by jscomposer:
keep an eye on her forearm. It's bouncing up and down.
No, look at the angle of the wrist/forearm in the stills. The first is before key depression the second after. It's all in the wrist. And to be perfectly clear the arm doesn't 'bounce'. Try dropping a piece of meat on the table.


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

Re: How to do fast octaves #407353
01/18/09 05:52 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
Quote
Originally posted by jscomposer:
[b] keep an eye on her forearm. It's bouncing up and down.
No, look at the angle of the wrist/forearm in the stills. The first is before key depression the second after. It's all in the wrist. And to be perfectly clear the arm doesn't 'bounce'. Try dropping a piece of meat on the table. [/b]
What's this strange new fetish you have for dropping meat on a table? shocked Dropping a dead slab of meat on a table is different than dropping a living hand on a lever. Again, two stills tell you nothing about the motion. Watch the video, her forearm is moving up and down plain as the eye can see. Now, whether the motion starts at the forearm and the hand reacts similar to a whip, or the motion starts at the wrist and affects the forearm accordingly, is anyone's guess. Considering Tuabman emphasizes the forearm, I'd wager it's option 1. But you can ask Miss Golansky yourself for a clarification.

And try shaping. wink

Re: How to do fast octaves #407354
01/18/09 06:14 AM
01/18/09 06:14 AM
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As the first still is at the top of the motion and the second still at the bottom it tells you what you need to know about the motion i.e. no change in position of the forearm.

It is important as, following her advice, the less experienced players will try to use their arm for faster octaves and damage themselves. She should have pointed that out but she (and you) seems to be under the delusion she is using her forearm.

Also I'd jettison the 'whipping' idea - that's no way to treat a hand.


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

Re: How to do fast octaves #407355
01/18/09 07:03 AM
01/18/09 07:03 AM
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I said I think it could be either way. I'm only guessing she's using forearm because Taubman generally focuses on the forearm, and because she even demonstrated the trademark Taubman forearm rotation right before speeding it up. For all we know it could be a mixture of both. The only "delusion" here is your stubborn fixation on two stills, and a refusal to watch the whole motion in action.

Re: How to do fast octaves #407356
01/18/09 09:19 AM
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I have reverted the entire video to its stills. There is no more to see (outside of your imagination). Maybe you need to get some sleep bro.


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