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Re: How to do fast octaves #407347
01/17/09 09:19 PM
01/17/09 09:19 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 537
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jscomposer Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Loki:
Speaking of fast octaves...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRUnEuFPcFY
That's impressive. Too bad he butchered the piece. :rolleyes:

BTW, fast repetitions aren't that difficult. It feels more like twitching than deliberate movements. I first learned how to get up to that speed by mimicking Cryptopsy's drummer...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sB_wCYF4BCM&fmt=18

(The blast beat at the beginning is NOT the fast part! Check out :30.)

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Re: How to do fast octaves #407348
01/17/09 10:03 PM
01/17/09 10:03 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,453
Horowitzian Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by jscomposer:
That's impressive. Too bad he butchered the piece. :rolleyes:
He? laugh


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Re: How to do fast octaves #407349
01/17/09 11:39 PM
01/17/09 11:39 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 959
Basel, Switzerland
pianovirus Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Horowitzian:
Quote
Originally posted by jscomposer:
[b]That's impressive. Too bad he butchered the piece. :rolleyes:
He? laugh [/b]
He??? :rolleyes: Butchered???? :rolleyes:

Btw, too bad we don't have video footage of this thrilling recording...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzZVcP8XsTk

Re: How to do fast octaves #407350
01/18/09 01:59 AM
01/18/09 01:59 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
London, UK (though if it's Aug...
keyboardklutz Offline OP
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Quote
Originally posted by jscomposer:
BTW, take a closer look. Her forearm IS moving up and down at the end (which is the same clip as shown in the beginning).
No it isn't, she's doing them from the wrist, the two stills show that.
Quote
Originally posted by JustAnotherPianist:
Let me get this straight, you're posting a video about how to do this, yet you cannot do it yourself?
That's not very straight is it? Where did I post I can't do octaves?

Quote
Originally posted by Loki:
Speaking of fast octaves...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRUnEuFPcFY
That lady will damage herself with a posture like that.


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

Re: How to do fast octaves #407351
01/18/09 03:41 AM
01/18/09 03:41 AM
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Posts: 537
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jscomposer Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
Quote
Originally posted by jscomposer:
[b]BTW, take a closer look. Her forearm IS moving up and down at the end (which is the same clip as shown in the beginning).
No it isn't, she's doing them from the wrist, the two stills show that. [/b]
Looking at stills tells you nothing about the motion. Watch it in motion and keep an eye on her forearm. It's bouncing up and down. Not as much as her hand, of course. Think of it like a whipping motion.

Another thing I learned from Flo Mounier about fast repetitions is to employ some macromovement (the word I want to use is escaping me, so I made one up), or what Taubman would call "shaping". If the hand going up and down at the wrist is a micromovement in 16th notes, then you could smoothly vary the wrist angle and/or employ circular arm motion (macromovement) at a quarter note pace. This relieves tension as you're not repeating the motion from the same exact position every time. It also helps endurance. Here's a visual...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_1RZcM3zso&fmt=18 (look at 1:03)

Re: How to do fast octaves #407352
01/18/09 03:50 AM
01/18/09 03:50 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
London, UK (though if it's Aug...
keyboardklutz Offline OP
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Quote
Originally posted by jscomposer:
keep an eye on her forearm. It's bouncing up and down.
No, look at the angle of the wrist/forearm in the stills. The first is before key depression the second after. It's all in the wrist. And to be perfectly clear the arm doesn't 'bounce'. Try dropping a piece of meat on the table.


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

Re: How to do fast octaves #407353
01/18/09 04:52 AM
01/18/09 04:52 AM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 537
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Quote
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
Quote
Originally posted by jscomposer:
[b] keep an eye on her forearm. It's bouncing up and down.
No, look at the angle of the wrist/forearm in the stills. The first is before key depression the second after. It's all in the wrist. And to be perfectly clear the arm doesn't 'bounce'. Try dropping a piece of meat on the table. [/b]
What's this strange new fetish you have for dropping meat on a table? shocked Dropping a dead slab of meat on a table is different than dropping a living hand on a lever. Again, two stills tell you nothing about the motion. Watch the video, her forearm is moving up and down plain as the eye can see. Now, whether the motion starts at the forearm and the hand reacts similar to a whip, or the motion starts at the wrist and affects the forearm accordingly, is anyone's guess. Considering Tuabman emphasizes the forearm, I'd wager it's option 1. But you can ask Miss Golansky yourself for a clarification.

And try shaping. wink

Re: How to do fast octaves #407354
01/18/09 05:14 AM
01/18/09 05:14 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
London, UK (though if it's Aug...
keyboardklutz Offline OP
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As the first still is at the top of the motion and the second still at the bottom it tells you what you need to know about the motion i.e. no change in position of the forearm.

It is important as, following her advice, the less experienced players will try to use their arm for faster octaves and damage themselves. She should have pointed that out but she (and you) seems to be under the delusion she is using her forearm.

Also I'd jettison the 'whipping' idea - that's no way to treat a hand.


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

Re: How to do fast octaves #407355
01/18/09 06:03 AM
01/18/09 06:03 AM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 537
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I said I think it could be either way. I'm only guessing she's using forearm because Taubman generally focuses on the forearm, and because she even demonstrated the trademark Taubman forearm rotation right before speeding it up. For all we know it could be a mixture of both. The only "delusion" here is your stubborn fixation on two stills, and a refusal to watch the whole motion in action.

Re: How to do fast octaves #407356
01/18/09 08:19 AM
01/18/09 08:19 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
London, UK (though if it's Aug...
keyboardklutz Offline OP
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I have reverted the entire video to its stills. There is no more to see (outside of your imagination). Maybe you need to get some sleep bro.


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

Re: How to do fast octaves #407357
01/18/09 08:58 AM
01/18/09 08:58 AM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 537
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jscomposer Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
I have reverted the entire video to its stills.
[Linked Image]

I give up. You win. Have fun making your Taubman shrine.

Re: How to do fast octaves #407358
01/18/09 09:16 AM
01/18/09 09:16 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,837
Iowa City, IA
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I think when people have a problem with Taubman, it's more an issue with the attitude and wording than the technique itself.

Taubman's principles are solid. But her ideas are often presented in a way that suggests that she is the One True Way. People tend to become disciples or followers of Taubman/Golandsky, and they see it as being in opposition to all the other schools of piano playing out there.

What I was trying to show in the video I posted is that physiologically sound and beautiful technique has been around for a long time. Taubman does not have a Gnostic insight into piano technique, she just happens to be right, like several others.

The other problem is that they use phrases like "Perfect Octaves" and "Perfect Double Thirds."

If you watch the "Perfect Double Thirds" video, she describes thirds as having a double rotation.

The technique she describes works perfectly for the double thirds passage in the first Brahms concerto, where the tempo is moderate and a big sound is required, but what about the Chopin double thirds etude, or the opening of Beethoven Op. 2#3? There quite simply isn't time for a double rotation, so what then?

Then there's this little gem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16LNzkafBWw

It's a few words on fast playing that does not contain any fast playing! And what kind of fast playing are we talking about? Scale passages? Octaves? Different types of technical figurations (Chopin first prelude, Prokofiev Harp prelude, Rachmaninoff Op. 39#1?)

Again, what she's saying is correct - but she's addressing a very specific kind of problem, but there are other types of fast passages as well. She mentions that the technique many people use destroys legato, but what if you don't want to play legato? Does the technique remain the same or does it change? Obviously, some aspects remain the same while others change - but those are the kinds of issues that tend to be overlooked or glazed over in Taubman's work. (And yes, I've watched the complete set of tapes several times.)


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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Re: How to do fast octaves #407359
01/18/09 10:39 AM
01/18/09 10:39 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
London, UK (though if it's Aug...
keyboardklutz Offline OP
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I must admit I can't help laughing when I think of Gould being able to teach the physical aspects of piano playing in 30 minutes whilst Golansky and co need 20 hours of DVD!


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

Re: How to do fast octaves #407360
01/18/09 11:38 AM
01/18/09 11:38 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 97
Quite a Delight Offline
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Posts: 97


Simply rather marvellous.
Re: How to do fast octaves #407361
01/18/09 12:30 PM
01/18/09 12:30 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
London, UK (though if it's Aug...
keyboardklutz Offline OP
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That's just great, but I'm not so sure it has much to teach the merely mortal.


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

Re: How to do fast octaves #407362
01/18/09 12:35 PM
01/18/09 12:35 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 97
Quite a Delight Offline
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Posts: 97
I'd agree he is naturally gifted, but knowing his practice methods may be enlightening.


Simply rather marvellous.
Re: How to do fast octaves #407363
01/18/09 12:58 PM
01/18/09 12:58 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
London, UK (though if it's Aug...
keyboardklutz Offline OP
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In that case what are his practice methods?


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

Re: How to do fast octaves #407364
01/18/09 01:13 PM
01/18/09 01:13 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 97
Quite a Delight Offline
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Posts: 97
I don't know but at least you can visibly notice the primary motion comes from the wrist joint.


Simply rather marvellous.
Re: How to do fast octaves #407365
01/18/09 02:15 PM
01/18/09 02:15 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 537
The Boogie Down
jscomposer Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Kreisler:
I think when people have a problem with Taubman, it's more an issue with the attitude and wording than the technique itself.

Taubman's principles are solid. But her ideas are often presented in a way that suggests that she is the One True Way. People tend to become disciples or followers of Taubman/Golandsky, and they see it as being in opposition to all the other schools of piano playing out there.

What I was trying to show in the video I posted is that physiologically sound and beautiful technique has been around for a long time. Taubman does not have a Gnostic insight into piano technique, she just happens to be right, like several others.

The other problem is that they use phrases like "Perfect Octaves" and "Perfect Double Thirds."

If you watch the "Perfect Double Thirds" video, she describes thirds as having a double rotation.

The technique she describes works perfectly for the double thirds passage in the first Brahms concerto, where the tempo is moderate and a big sound is required, but what about the Chopin double thirds etude, or the opening of Beethoven Op. 2#3? There quite simply isn't time for a double rotation, so what then?

Then there's this little gem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16LNzkafBWw

It's a few words on fast playing that does not contain any fast playing! And what kind of fast playing are we talking about? Scale passages? Octaves? Different types of technical figurations (Chopin first prelude, Prokofiev Harp prelude, Rachmaninoff Op. 39#1?)

Again, what she's saying is correct - but she's addressing a very specific kind of problem, but there are other types of fast passages as well. She mentions that the technique many people use destroys legato, but what if you don't want to play legato? Does the technique remain the same or does it change? Obviously, some aspects remain the same while others change - but those are the kinds of issues that tend to be overlooked or glazed over in Taubman's work. (And yes, I've watched the complete set of tapes several times.)
The absolutisms are marketing, that's all. Another problem is that people are judging it based on excerpts. Of course you didn't see her playing fast in that clip. It was edited.

As far as Alexei Grynyuk goes, instead of worshiping his technique and doubting yourselves, why don't you try to figure out ways to achieve it? My jaw dropped when I first heard Cryptopsy, but once I got over that, I made progress. Perhaps some people have faster twitch mechanisms genetically, but you'll never know unless you try to push your boundaries. I couldn't move as fast as Flo Mounier initially, but I eventually got there through practice and persistence. Quick tip: start with short bursts--doubles, triples, quadruples... and build up.

[Linked Image]

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