Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner tempest sonata question

hey guys I might be starting the first movement any day now and I haven't looked it over too much yet, but on the first page where the tremolo type figure comes in around the 21st measure, how is that played? Because the tremolo is in the upper register of the bass clef and there's notes being played under it but then there's notes being played over it, so do you tremolo with the left hand and cross the right hand over to play the notes lower than it or vice versa or do you do a fast hand switch and tremolo with both?

i saw pianists playing that with crossing hands. so, guess you're right. actually, it's LH crossing to right.

On a side note...

Check out Helene Grimaud's website. The last time I checked, she's got an audio clip of herself talking about this sonata (history, performance, etc.)

wow, damnit stop man, you know I'm in love with Helen Grimaud, now you got me thinking bout her again

Hahaha. I saw her in concert last March, and she was gorgeous.

I've got 12 photos of her in my computer screensaver (slideshow), but none as beautiful as she was at that concert.

thanks though signa I guess that answers it, and jerome thanks I'll check out the site lol

do you know the site address I can't find it for some reason even with google?

http://helenegrimaud.com/special/index.htms?ID=grimaud-credo

Click on "listening guide."

thanks

listening to it now, really good

As notated, the implication is that you switch hands rather than crossing over, and that's the way I'm playing it at the moment. But RH tremolo with LH crossing is a very natural approach, and is definitely indicated in the similar passage in the development.

Best wishes,
Matthew Collett

Hey thanks Mathew you're right I could have SWORE that it seemed to indicate that the hands actually switch which would seem very awkward to me so I figured I was reading that indication wrong (which is confusing)...

I really don't see how the hands can be switched smoothly enough to sound better than just a right hand tremolo with left crossing. Do you find this way better for any particular reason?

I have just finished learning this Sonata and I also do it by switching from one hand to the other to sustain the tremolo, but more so to sustain the whole note that comes after the half and two quarters. The idea is that with any old pedal technique, it doesn't matter which way you do it... but for a precise, appropriate pedal technique for Beethoven, (and especially to get the forte-piano contrasts clean and well-cut), you NEED to hold that whole note underneath the melodic motive in the right hand, because you will hopefully need to change the pedal for it, and without your finger on that whole note still, it won't sound all the way through!

My suggestion is to do what I did and practise in a series of waves, that is if you are good at taking a feeling at slow speed and applying it to increasingly higher speeds until you hit your max for the day... then push it a little more the next. Start practising the exchanges slowly enough that you can feel out the triplets well, and change hands knowing that its clean and you didn't miss any notes! (it's especially hard to get all the triplet notes at the end of the motive before you drop to the next bass note motive!)... then slowly speed it up until just before the point where you lose distinction of accuracy. The next day you should be able to get it a little faster, and so on, before you know it you'll have it down! I just hate to think someone was almost advised to play this passage with a sloppy technique!

oh wait, now that i think about it, it's actually a tied whole note... so it's even worse to not hold it! Gives you an idea of the final target speed too... you have to play it fast enough for it to sustain all the way through!

Ah thanks...that cleared it up..wow what I thought would be a simple little passage is now gona be a lil bit of a challenge with that lightning fast hand switch ;-)

I know eh! I had to work on that probably second hardest... the hardest was re-learning a better fingering for the double-legato passages at the start, since i learned a pretty sloppy fingering on my own and got really used to it for no good reason!!

Have fun learning this sonata, it is one of my all-time favourite sonatas, ever, by far! 3rd movement is probably my favourite, it is just so catchy!

Yea it's probably my favorite Beethoven sonata, and one of my all time favorite pieces. What fingering do you use for that beginning passage 3-2-3-2-3-2 etc?

I definately use 3-2-3-2-3-2-3-2. for the first passage. Any other fingering doesn't give you the accent on the first note, or the speed that you need. Also that there's always a "down, up" motion between each two slurred notes. While I was studying with Vladimir Feltsman, he beat me over the head with that idea. Accent the first slightly more!

Best Regards

yeah, i used a much worse fingering at first and then switched to that. I also had to change the fingering in the second passage after the second arp 1st inversion chord so that there would be a new finger on each repeated note instead of using the same one again. Any old fingering works fine at slow tempo but only the fingering I got with my proper edition works at full speed!