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Suppose, as often happens, a composer publishes a piece, and then later changes it and publishes a new revised version. Which version would you play, assuming that there are significant differences? Would you assume that the second version must be better or "more authentic" than the first? Would you consider combining elements of both to create a new, third edition? What got me thinking of this, is that I have two original editions of a piece by Joel Engel, one published in 1919 and the other published in 1923 . The composer was very active with both publishers – in fact, he helped to create both of them – so it's unlikely that someone else changed the piece for the 1923 version without his supervision. There are some interesting differences, and I'm not sure which one I'd prefer to play. I prefer some elements of the earlier version, and I prefer some other elements of the later version, but, of course, I'm hesitant to combine them in my own way to create a version that was never the composer's.
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Personally, between the Rachmaninoff sonatas, I prefer the original 1913. It's a strikingly more powerful work, in my opinion.
Similarly, I derive a savage pleasure from the Liszt 1838 Wilde Jagd, whose development is much more bold.
Then there's the interesting case of Liszt's transcription of Norma for two pianos and the almost criminal excision!
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Is it the early version of the Brahms B Major Trio that nobody ever plays anymore? One of my professors made us study that one, and not the more popular one, simply because it's so unknown.
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Originally posted by pianojerome: Is it the early version of the Brahms B Major Trio that nobody ever plays anymore? One of my professors made us study that one, and not the more popular one, simply because it's so unknown. That's correct. The Op. 8 revision is very popular (and a great piece, no doubt.) I really ought to listen to the original. Brahms said of it, "It's cleaner, but is it better?"
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Originally posted by Fleeting Visions: Then there's the interesting case of Liszt's transcription of Norma for two pianos and the almost criminal excision! What excision? The Guerra, guerra! climax in the original is not simplified in the two piano arrangement. The first piano is still stuck with the difficulties...
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Originally posted by argerichfan: Originally posted by Fleeting Visions: Then there's the interesting case of Liszt's transcription of Norma for two pianos and the almost criminal excision! What excision? The Guerra, guerra! climax in the original is not simplified in the two piano arrangement. The first piano is still stuck with the difficulties... He cuts out about 4-5 minutes of development. That's why the solo is ~16 minutes long and the duo 12.
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Originally posted by Fleeting Visions: Similarly, I derive a savage pleasure from the Liszt 1838 Wilde Jagd, whose development is much more bold.
But the opening salvo is hopeless on modern pianos. Maybe it was a friendly love-note to the great Clara Schumann, even though Liszt reserved his finest heart-felt hurdles for Clara in the 1838 version of the Paganini Etudes, knowing full well what a mess she would have made of them. Eh, doubtful Clara acknowledged the dedication anyway. She was too busy writing her own music, certainly amongst the most profound of its time. With her great talent we should be in awe of her considered and profound opinions of Liszt. Hollywood -funnily I should mention Hollywood this morning, what with the Oscars and Hollywood's self-congratulatory celebration of such pure and empty glitz- had a field day with Clara bringing down Liszt in one of those vomitous 'composer' films. One wonders who writes those scripts... and they got paid for that crap?
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Originally posted by Fleeting Visions: He cuts out about 4-5 minutes of development. That's why the solo is ~16 minutes long and the duo 12. Yes, as usual, you are correct. It has been a few years since I have examined the score. Was it ever recorded? Maybe the Contigula (sp?) Brothers did it, cannot recall. But my observation about the Guerra chorus still stands.
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I suspect that published music was not the composer's final word on what should be played, particularly if the composer was the performer. So play what you want!
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If the composer publishes two different versions, it seems to me you have a choice.
It's interesting, though. Just today in the New York Times, there was an extensive piece on Mendelssohn. It seems that Mendelssohn sometimes withheld publication of a piece because it had the effect of precluding a change of mind. This would argue for Engel's 2nd version. But maybe not. Engels isn't Mendelsson.
Sometimes a composer publishes a piece, and then later records it differently. I believe Rachmaninoff did this. And I believe I've read that Gershwin did the opposite: recorded a piece, and then published it differently. I don't know what to do in these cases. It seems to me that some of these composers are intent upon driving us nuts with the doctrine of composer's intent. I really wonder if this is healthy.
Tomasino
"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do so with all thy might." Ecclesiastes 9:10
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Originally posted by tomasino: It seems to me that some of these composers are intent upon driving us nuts with the doctrine of composer's intent. I really wonder if this is healthy. If they were intent on driving you nuts, then obviously being nuts is necessary for an effective performance I don't think it was the composers that came up with this 'doctrine'. Especially the dead ones are unlikely to care. It's the performer's choice to research intent as an aide to interpretation, nothing more.
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Gnu wrote: I don't think it was the composers that came up with this 'doctrine'. . . It's the performer's choice to research intent as an aide to interpretation, nothing more. I haven't given much thought to how the doctrine of composer's intent developed over time, but it seems to me, at this point in time, to be quite universally held within the classical music culture. It often shows itself in the judgement of competitions, in reviews of performances and recordings, and in the teaching studios--it's a given in the threads of Piano Forum. This being so, I hardly see how an individual has any real "choice" in the matter. Tomasino
"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do so with all thy might." Ecclesiastes 9:10
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In that case I was wrong. It's an aide to performance that has been placed on a pedestal by society. And if the composer's intention was to drive you nuts ... you'd better be driven nuts. I suppose the composer's intent never includes mercantile aspects like making enough money to stay alive to write the next piece?
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Originally posted by gnu: In that case I was wrong. It's an aide to performance that has been placed on a pedestal by society. And if the composer's intention was to drive you nuts ... you'd better be driven nuts.
I suppose the composer's intent never includes mercantile aspects like making enough money to stay alive to write the next piece? GNU is Not Unix. Am I right?
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I do not believe the works of Bach, Mozart and many composers were written and recorded correctly their intention.
Besides, if there is no law suit against the Piano performers when they do not play exactly as required by the law, we need not to worry to play by the rules.
Why don't we enjoy playing the piece the way we love to play?
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