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#383948 - 05/04/06 11:52 AM Re: Black Note Etude  
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"Singing" on a piano means:

1) The piece you play one or two clear melodies that clearly dominate over the rest (accompagnement). Like in Mendelsson´s "Songs without words".

Staccato is not "singing".

2) The piano has a warm sound and long natural sustain (oppsite to hard or brilliant sond with a strong attack and fast dacay).

I think these two meanings are well established and cannot be disputed.

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#383949 - 05/04/06 02:58 PM Re: Black Note Etude  
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Yes, "sing" can effectively be used as a metaphor to describe how to play a melody line in a piano composition. I don't think that was the original "issue" raised here.

It still doesn't justify the use - in the context of a composition of a classical composer - of the word "song" when what, in effect, is a non-vocal work.

As pointed out, it is a generational phenomenon which stems from the fact that much downloaded music from the Internet is generically referred to as "songs".

The confusion - and the ignorance - are compounded when one unknowingly refers to works of composers who wrote not only instrumental works but vocal works - songs - as well.

Regards,


BruceD
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#383950 - 05/04/06 08:40 PM Re: Black Note Etude  
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I'll keep out of the song debate, but I do find most renditions of this piece too fast for my taste. I'm enjoying playing it, and other Chopin studies, much more since I've slowed down a little. Most of Chopin's wonderful melodic phrases "sing", and it's hard to make anything "sing" at a uniform ninety miles an hour.


"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley
#383951 - 05/05/06 03:05 AM Re: Black Note Etude  
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Normally, I don't do this, but just this once, I will:

Quote
[1] And it is just that... yes, yes, we all know that languages develop and change over time, but in common English usage as it stands today, it's just wrong.
Actually, you are wrong. In what you call 'common English', the term 'song' to refer to a 'piece' is absolutely correct. In formal diction, it would be incorrect.

Back to your normally-scheduled poster-remarks:

And thus, when we speak of a piano singing, this is more the definition we are referring to.

But alas, you've known what we meant all along, and only wish to argue for the sake of arguing. So have at it.

I know exactly what "sing" means, and I know exactly what "song" means. But you cannot pick and choose when you want to use them, and then blaspheme someone else's use. wink


PJ: 'sing' by itself is meaningless and, of course... "'Sing' is so ambiguous by itself – even more so because it is an impossible task with the piano – that if you don't explain, the person has absolutely no way of interpreting exactly what you mean."
D: At last, one of them understands! wink


I prefer to use the term 'sing' at the piano not in any specific usage, but simply that you are expressing music so it sounds like it's coming from you, not from you to the piano
But don't you see how arbitrary that is? Without anything further, it is impossible to make the sound of the piano come from you. The sound comes from the piano. It HAS to go from you to the piano. That's the only way a piano sound is made! wink

The use of the word "singing" isn't going to confuse people just because pianos don't have vocal cords. I think to most people the metaphor is obvious-- we want to make the piano sound like a singer singing a song.
It confuses the heck out of me. A piano cannot, under any circumstances, sing...so why would you try to tell me to make it sing? What, specifically, about my TECHNIQUE can I alter to produce this effect that you desire (whatever it is)? THIS is what you should be saying. When teaching a student, you HAVE to get at the CAUSE, not the effect!

Point:
Staccato is not "singing".
But a singer can sing in a staccato....
The piano has a warm sound and long natural sustain (oppsite to hard or brilliant sond with a strong attack and fast dacay).

Actually, compared to other instruments, the piano DOES have a fast decay.


And now, your moment of zen:
and it's hard to make anything "sing" at a uniform ninety miles an hour.
You don't often drive a car and blast the radio at the same time, do you? :p


Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.
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#383952 - 05/05/06 12:20 PM Re: Black Note Etude  
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Derulux:
Quote
Actually, you are wrong.
I don't think so.
Quote
In what you call 'common English', the term 'song' to refer to a 'piece' is absolutely correct. In formal diction, it would be incorrect.
You seem to misunderstand the meaning of vocabulary or expressions being "common English" (your interpretation) or in "common usage" or in this particular case "common English usage[1]". "Formal diction" doesn't even enter into the debate. Are you sure English is your first language? wink

- Michael B.

[1] i.e. the "common usage (of English)" rather than "the usage of common English." If you google for the phrase "common English usage" (with the inverted commas) and you will find various illustrative examples.


There are two rules to success in life: Rule #1. Don't tell people everything you know.
#383953 - 05/05/06 04:10 PM Re: Black Note Etude  
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Funny use of "blaspheme" too.


John


Vasa inania multum strepunt.
#383954 - 05/05/06 04:16 PM Re: Black Note Etude  
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I think, maybe, those who use words for which they have their own special definitions, or who regularly betray a "creative" attitude to language, should provide us with a glossary of that day's definitions. Then the rest of us would find it easier to stay up to speed.


John


Vasa inania multum strepunt.
#383955 - 05/05/06 04:25 PM Re: Black Note Etude  
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Words are an endless and hopelessly dark labyrinth with no exit. Wander through them at your own risk!


Only the humble improve.
#383956 - 05/05/06 04:48 PM Re: Black Note Etude  
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John:
Quote
Then the rest of us would find it easier to stay up to speed.
Indeed. I think that Derulux should feel suitably anispeptic, frasmotic, even compunctuous, to have caused us all such pericombobulation.

- Michael B.


There are two rules to success in life: Rule #1. Don't tell people everything you know.
#383957 - 05/05/06 05:18 PM Re: Black Note Etude  
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Quote
Originally posted by PoStTeNeBrAsLuX:
John:
Quote
Then the rest of us would find it easier to stay up to speed.
Indeed. I think that Derulux should feel suitably anispeptic, frasmotic, even compunctuous, to have caused us all such pericombobulation.

- Michael B.
More indubitable confabulation has never been announced!

#383958 - 05/05/06 07:18 PM Re: Black Note Etude  
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Quote
Originally posted by PoStTeNeBrAsLuX:
John:
Quote
Then the rest of us would find it easier to stay up to speed.
Indeed. I think that Derulux should feel suitably anispeptic, frasmotic, even compunctuous, to have caused us all such pericombobulation.

- Michael B.
by Lewis Carroll


`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.



"Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!"

He took his vorpal sword in hand:
Long time the manxome foe he sought --
So rested he by the Tumtum tree,
And stood awhile in thought.

And, as in uffish thought he stood,
The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
And burbled as it came!

One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back.

"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.


`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.


Sam
#383959 - 05/06/06 02:13 AM Re: Black Note Etude  
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Bernard Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by holystorm:
I think this is one of Chopins greatest songs, but I want to know is it harder to play a song where 90% of the notes are on the black keys, opposed to the white keys?

Thanks.
Hey, holystorm, Well! You've stirred up a storm! Hee hee.

You are not to be faulted for your use of the word 'song'.

I was fortunate to have a band director in high school who pointed out the distiction right off the bat, and he made sure we were clear about it!! Hee hee.

I gather that by now you see that the word "piece" is the jargon. In classical music a "song" is a "piece" written for human voice (the greatest instrument of all!)

Anyhoo...

The black key etude may well be one of the easiest to master. It was indeed the first one I was taught.


"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown
#383960 - 05/06/06 03:32 AM Re: Black Note Etude  
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Sam,

Nothing to do with Lewis Carroll this time round: though still a British cultural reference. A little googling will provide the answer. Nevertheless let me offer you my most enthusiastic contrafribularities.... and I shall return interfrastically smile

- Michael B.


There are two rules to success in life: Rule #1. Don't tell people everything you know.
#383961 - 05/06/06 03:55 AM Re: Black Note Etude  
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tenuki Offline
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geese guys, you have no excuse, you are obvously already on the internet...

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sing

substituting 'piano' for 'violin' seems somehow right to me for 1d, and 2a and 2b seem to apply as well. I'm sure many of you have other opinions though...

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=song

Not as clear unforunately, but it does mention short whatever that means.


Only the humble improve.
#383962 - 05/06/06 04:31 AM Re: Black Note Etude  
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PoStTeNeBrAsLuX Offline
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tenuki:
Quote
but it does mention short whatever that means.
The part that says "a short musical composition with words?"
Quote
Not as clear unforunately
The whole affair is very clear. A piece of non-vocal music is not a song. At least not in common English usage as it stands today. Perhaps in a few years it might be, via the influence of internet downloading terminology, mp3 players, etc.

Also for Bernard to state that the word 'piece' is 'jargon' is also erroneous[1]. If you ask any educated English-speaking non-musician how to term a non-vocal composition and one of his/her first responses would be 'piece.' The word 'piece' is common usage, and not at all classical music jargon. Indeed, the (mis)use of the word 'song' is a much better candidate for being jargon, seeing as appears to derive from internet downloading / mp3 tagging terminology, where music files (and by extension the music itself, regardless of its vocal/non-vocal content) are referred to as 'songs.'

- Michael B.

[1] Jargon is technical or specialised language used by a specific group of people (trade, profession, hobbyists, etc), and is thus usually not considered common usage. Though of course lots of jargon enters common usage over time: 'song' for non-vocal music may be yet another case.


There are two rules to success in life: Rule #1. Don't tell people everything you know.
#383963 - 05/06/06 04:35 AM Re: Black Note Etude  
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Jabberwocky is an example of creative use of language, not of "creative" use of language. The first is interesting - Russel Hoban, James Joyce, Anthony Burgess; the second is sloppy, arrogant and tedious. The first has been produced by first-rate minds, the second by lazy would-be intellectuals. Was it Humpty-dumpty.....?

John


Vasa inania multum strepunt.
#383964 - 05/06/06 05:07 AM Re: Black Note Etude  
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Come on mr H4xOr, lighten up. I was _supporting_ your position and trying to be funny. Yes it quite clearly says 'with words'. duh.


Only the humble improve.
#383965 - 05/06/06 07:18 AM Re: Black Note Etude  
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tenuki,
Sorry, your attempt at humour was lost on me. And I shall attempt to adopt a lighter[1] tone from now on smile

- Michael B.

[1] Though I cannot for the life of me see what there is to discuss in this matter! mad ....Nurse! NURSE!!!


There are two rules to success in life: Rule #1. Don't tell people everything you know.
#383966 - 05/06/06 10:22 PM Re: Black Note Etude  
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If you ask any educated English-speaking non-musician how to term a non-vocal composition and one of his/her first responses would be 'piece.'
Define "educated". The responses, after all, will vary depending on what type of education you are speaking, as well as what level of education (on the subject, particularly) one has. [1]

-Random break for the sake of breaking.

[1]What purpose do your "footnotes" serve? [q*uote]Oh, my god, a footnote! *whispers* He must be edumacated... [/q*uote]


Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.
#383967 - 05/06/06 10:52 PM Re: Black Note Etude  
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valarking Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Derulux:

Define "educated".
No.

Say no to needless semantics.

#383968 - 05/06/06 11:32 PM Re: Black Note Etude  
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deleted laugh


When I reach the place I'm going, I will surely know my way.
#383969 - 05/07/06 12:07 AM Re: Black Note Etude  
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can we get back to the black key etude?

what was that orange rolling about?


Yundi Li (http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/play.htms?LINK=rtsp://ra.universal-music-group.com/dgg/yundiLi-liszt-W-COVER.rm)
#383970 - 05/07/06 12:22 AM Re: Black Note Etude  
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Sh-h-h-h-h Be quiet, I'm listening to a song.


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#383971 - 05/07/06 12:26 AM Re: Black Note Etude  
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I always thought 'piece' sounded funny too. Sculpters and painters call their creations 'pieces'and that sounds wierd to me too. what should we call what we're playing? I don't know uh how about "music"?

Pieces of what?


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#383972 - 05/07/06 02:04 AM Re: Black Note Etude  
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Quote
Originally posted by Roger Ransom:
Pieces of what?
Uh... music? confused

#383973 - 05/07/06 04:14 AM Re: Black Note Etude  
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Derulux:
Quote
[1]What purpose do your "footnotes" serve? [q*uote]Oh, my god, a footnote! *whispers* He must be edumacated... [/q*uote]
Did you consult Mr Google for the phrase "common English usage" and realise your rather basic error? Or have you been too busy making feeble attempts to criticise the formal aspects[1] of a post, rather than its content?

And before you ask, I could define the word feeble if that helps...

- Michael B.
[1] I like the use of footnotes[2].
[2] It prevents a build-up of parenthetical comments in the main text[3], and gives the reader the choice of reading a shorter version, and/or consulting below for more detail.
[3] Something I'd have thought an 'educated' person such as yourself might have noticed and appreciated wink .


There are two rules to success in life: Rule #1. Don't tell people everything you know.
#383974 - 05/07/06 03:24 PM Re: Black Note Etude  
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Quote
Originally posted by valarking:
Quote
Originally posted by Derulux:
[b]
Define "educated".
No.

Say no to needless semantics. [/b]
So you're saying that the guy who got his GED and now works at Firestone in West Philly will have the same response as a History of Music professor with a Ph.D. from Juilliard? :rolleyes:


Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.
#383975 - 05/07/06 03:39 PM Re: Black Note Etude  
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valarking Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Derulux:
Quote
Originally posted by valarking:
[b]
Quote
Originally posted by Derulux:
[b]
Define "educated".
No.

Say no to needless semantics. [/b]
So you're saying that the guy who got his GED and now works at Firestone in West Philly will have the same response as a History of Music professor with a Ph.D. from Juilliard? :rolleyes: [/b]
Define response please.

#383976 - 05/07/06 04:01 PM Re: Black Note Etude  
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Derulux, if you can honestly say you would tell people that you would like to "sing them a song", and expect them to expect you playing a piano piece, then by all means, call pieces for songs.

#383977 - 05/07/06 04:08 PM Re: Black Note Etude  
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if you can honestly say you would tell people that you would like to "sing them a song", and expect them to expect you playing a piano piece, then by all means, call pieces for songs.
NO. I don't believe "sing" accurately describes a piano, but I do believe that, for shorter pieces, song is certainly a more-than-acceptable substitute.

[1] I like the use of footnotes[2].
[2] It prevents a build-up of parenthetical comments in the main text[3], and gives the reader the choice of reading a shorter version, and/or consulting below for more detail.
[3] Something I'd have thought an 'educated' person such as yourself might have noticed and appreciated .

Ok, that cracked me up. laugh thumb

Define response please.
I didn't use the word response in the text you quoted. Reread the post, please. wink


Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.
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