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Originally posted by bruce-san: [QB The second movement has the C# minor key signature all the way through. It ends on E minor but it starts on C# [/QB] Yes, it is in four sharps, but that is also the key of E major. Check your score once again, the melody of the opening theme, both in the orchestra and when the piano takes it up is solidly in E major. And you can't get any more solid E major chords than the final bars of the movement, either. So, I really don't see how you can construe this as C# minor. Regards,
BruceD - - - - - Estonia 190
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Originally posted by pianojerome: But this begs the question: in equal temperament, aren't all minor keys "the same"? No. In practice, tuning is not that simple: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_tuning Certain intervals and octaves must be stretched or narrowed to make everything "sound" right. This results in minor differences from one key to another. Thus the third in some keys is actually a bit narrower than a third in other keys.
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt) www.pianoped.comwww.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed
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Kreisler, this would make sense. For me, the keys of C and G major sounds quite "masculine" and/or "squarish" while F major sounds softer and more feminine. I find that F is my most favorite key even though I can play in all 12. I haven't ventured into the minor keys very much yet, so I can't speak first-hand about the way they make me feel.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Max W: Wouldn't they be based around different frequencies? I don't know what the human range is, or how it compares the piano...but maybe there could be some correlations there?
Max, consider the harmonic series when thinking of these relationships. Basically, the first overtone above the fundimental is an octave. The next is a 5th, the next is another octave... and so on. A minor third sounds mysterious to us because, as an overtone, it is much further above the fundimental than a major third. Octaves and 5ths sound so perfect to us because they appear sooner in the series. Hope this makes sense.
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Scriabin's first etude is also in C# minor and yes, it seems to fit the bill. Incredible etude.
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Isn't A440 a fairly recent standard, in which case, if composers were trying to invoke emotions from keys based on frequencies, the 19th century composers were presumably not trying to invoke the same emotions we are hearing today - their C# minor would not have been ours, moody or otherwise. As long as it's always the same stretching in the same places, Kreisler's explanation of a difference in intervals in the different keys seems a better explanation...
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i hate c sharp minor.... its the placement of the sharps
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IMO a good combination of black and white keys sound best on piano - Eb,Ab,Db,Bb and their relative minors- it must be the physics of the piano similarly on guitar, most works are composed with keys using some open chords- E,A,D etc or barre chords using 5th 7th 3rd frets(the strongest harmonically) eg.it would be unusual to see a guitar piece composed in Db major
"musical training is a more potent instrument than any other because rhythym and harmony find their way into the inner places of the soul" -Plato
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Originally posted by BruceD: Originally posted by bruce-san: [QB The second movement has the C# minor key signature all the way through. It ends on E minor but it starts on C# Yes, it is in four sharps, but that is also the key of E major. Check your score once again, the melody of the opening theme, both in the orchestra and when the piano takes it up is solidly in E major. And you can't get any more solid E major chords than the final bars of the movement, either. So, I really don't see how you can construe this as C# minor.
Regards, [/QB]Because almost all of the movement is minor tonality, and I've played a lot of the piano part and it is also mostly in C# minor.
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... and I just played through most of the second movement today, and much of it - particularly the beginning and the end (which determine the key, I believe) - is in E major.
It looks as though we'll just have to disagree on this.
Regards,
BruceD - - - - - Estonia 190
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My question would be whether the average tuning one is likely to encounter, will exibit the peculiar uniqueness in each of the keys that other average tunings exibit. I doubt it.
While I realize there are physical differences between the keys even in ET, the variation between tunings on different pianos would probably wash all that out. What we're left with is the "character" of the raw pitches, where each key is at least a half step from the other keys, and therefore will claim a certain uniqueness all its own across different tunings - this accounts for synesthesia. We're also left with psychosomatic stuff, people thinking they hear something because they want to hear it, which is probably the biggest factor.
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A number of years ago, Karl Haas (Spelling?), had a program every night in which he discussed music, composers and performers. In his discussion of Beethoven, he mentioned that a graduate student at USC, made an analysis of the works of Beethoven, and found that Beethoven had a distinct preference for Cmi. Often, no matter what key he started in, he would eventually get into Cmi. Gaby Tu
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Originally posted by bruce-san: Originally posted by BruceD: [b] Originally posted by bruce-san: [QB The second movement has the C# minor key signature all the way through. It ends on E minor but it starts on C# Yes, it is in four sharps, but that is also the key of E major. Check your score once again, the melody of the opening theme, both in the orchestra and when the piano takes it up is solidly in E major. And you can't get any more solid E major chords than the final bars of the movement, either. So, I really don't see how you can construe this as C# minor. Regards, [/b] Because almost all of the movement is minor tonality, and I've played a lot of the piano part and it is also mostly in C# minor. [/QB]Sorry, the second movement is most definitely not in C# minor.
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Originally posted by Horace: My question would be whether the average tuning one is likely to encounter, will exibit the peculiar uniqueness in each of the keys that other average tunings exibit. I doubt it.
While I realize there are physical differences between the keys even in ET, the variation between tunings on different pianos would probably wash all that out. What we're left with is the "character" of the raw pitches, where each key is at least a half step from the other keys, and therefore will claim a certain uniqueness all its own across different tunings - this accounts for synesthesia. We're also left with psychosomatic stuff, people thinking they hear something because they want to hear it, which is probably the biggest factor. care to translate into english?
"musical training is a more potent instrument than any other because rhythym and harmony find their way into the inner places of the soul" -Plato
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BruceD is right and his statement brooks no argument. If the movement begins in E major (which, after a very short modulatory passage from C minor, it does) and ends in E major, then the movement is in E major. All other tonalities/modalities in the movement were written to be heard in relation to this tonic key. This is not a matter of opinion and how one feels has no bearing on the matter.
John
Vasa inania multum strepunt.
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Ok, I yield. Sorry for wasting time. C# minor is still pretty cool though.
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care to translate into english? When people talk of the differences between keys, i.e. the "emotional feel" of the keys, they're talking about the differences in the intervals - how the root third in one key differs from the root third in another key, etc. Each key will have its own signature of intervals in "theoretically perfect" ET tuning. But those differences between the keys are going to be small enough that they'll be washed out by the real-life tuning imperfections one is likely to encounter in any given piano. Yet those tuning imperfections don't dissuade people from thinking that each key has a certain color. They're hearing nothing real other than the physical difference in pitch centers between keys - c# is a half step higher than c so if you transpose a piece from c to c# it'll sound "different" for that reason on every piano. But that's the only predictable consistent difference you'll ever find, because the difference in the interval signatures of keys in ET is too small to ever be heard through tuning irregularities that will almost always exist. Not to mention the fact that there are different ways to tune to ET (which is always approximated anyway) which once again will introduce irregularities on a scale that will wash out the supposed differences. The only thing people are hearing when they talk about keys sounding differently is the overall shift up or down in pitch - and since synesthetes attach color to pitch, it's clear that the keys will "feel" different to them for that reason (only).
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Originally posted by Horace: care to translate into english? When people talk of the differences between keys, i.e. the "emotional feel" of the keys, they're talking about the differences in the intervals - how the root third in one key differs from the root third in another key, etc. Each key will have its own signature of intervals in "theoretically perfect" ET tuning. But those differences between the keys are going to be small enough that they'll be washed out by the real-life tuning imperfections one is likely to encounter in any given piano. Yet those tuning imperfections don't dissuade people from thinking that each key has a certain color. They're hearing nothing real other than the physical difference in pitch centers between keys - c# is a half step higher than c so if you transpose a piece from c to c# it'll sound "different" for that reason on every piano. But that's the only predictable consistent difference you'll ever find, because the difference in the interval signatures of keys in ET is too small to ever be heard through tuning irregularities that will almost always exist. Not to mention the fact that there are different ways to tune to ET (which is always approximated anyway) which once again will introduce irregularities on a scale that will wash out the supposed differences.
The only thing people are hearing when they talk about keys sounding differently is the overall shift up or down in pitch - and since synesthetes attach color to pitch, it's clear that the keys will "feel" different to them for that reason (only). well,i contend that this varies between instruments
"musical training is a more potent instrument than any other because rhythym and harmony find their way into the inner places of the soul" -Plato
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As a composer I often write in G-sharp minor, even though my work is, for the most part, too chromatic to be placed in any key signature. It's easier to work out of for some reason for me, since a lot of the chromatic harmonies (like Em, Gm, Fm) are very simple by themselves. There are a few composers who preferred flats (best example I can think of is Faure) and their works are typically not as dark as works by composers who use sharp keys. It's probably because in a sharp key there's room for downward motion in most voices without having to imploy double accidentals and such.
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I always assumed that geniuses like mozart, beethoven, chopin etc... all wrote with the intention of creating a mood and they would choose a particular key to help achieve that. Thus the reason for playing in a particular key.
Peter
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Mozart wrote for meantone tuning, so there would be differences between the various keys. Beethoven was transitional. By the time you get to Chopin, there was less difference. Chopin preferred E major because the scale fits well under the fingers. The long fingers are on the black keys. That would apply to C# minor as well.
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