Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner Slurred Staccato

I've come across several pieces that have slurred staccato. Although I've listened carefully, I haven't noticed anything particular in recordings of those pieces to give me a clear idea of how to play slurred staccato notes/chords.

In Chopin's Etude Op. 10 No. 9, there are entire measures that are staccato and slurred, so I though that those might be phrase markings. However, there are also two-note groups of slurred staccato notes.

Slurred staccatos are also in Chopin's Op. 9 No. 2 and Medtner's Fairy Tale in b-flat minor (op. 20 no. 1).

Furthermore, all these pieces use frequent pedaling. It seems that with the slurring and pedaling, one wouldn't even hear the staccato.

I use these examples in particular because I have learned/am learning them. What I've been doing for the smaller groups is lifting the pedal after each note/chord. For the larger phrases in the etude, I've been playing the notes staccato but don't see the purpose, as staccato with pedal sounds the same to me as a note played normally with pedal.

Advice?

I don't really have any practical advice, but the official term for it is portato or "articulated legato."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portato

You may find more information about its execution on piano by searching on those terms.

Steven

That's in Mozart a lot, also, isn't it? It's played kind of just the way it's called -- it's not legato, but not as sharp or disconnected as a regular staccato. Don't you have a teacher? A teacher should tell you how to play them and demonstrate. I'll have to admit, I don't think you usually have them in pieces with pedaling at the same time, though. I don't think my CHopin nocturnes have that mark (or etudes) with pedaling, I'll have to check. However, I don't see the problem with having a slur mark with staccatos, even if two notes, it just indicates a portato which is exactly what this is. It's just that the note should sound for about 3/4 the amount of time as usual, more or less.

my teacher says; play it legato in an almost non-legato fashion but articulate each note as if staccato.

Well not very practical advice but i think one would get the meaning.

This is just my last question restated? Did you decide which ones were portato and which portamento? You can pedal with staccato-doesn't sound same to me. Not another word.

No, I haven't got a teacher at the moment. I didn't say there was a problem with slurred staccato-- just that I don't know how to play them. I'd never heard of the term 'portato' before. And yes, all three pieces require pedal, with explicit direction in the scores.

It might be that the slur is there only to indicate where the phrase starts and stops. Since you're using pedal throughout, you should probably play it staccato but with pedal. That's just my two cents though.

okay, I looked at two versions I have of the CHopin Nocturnes and both have it (one being Urtext, Henle) and I see what you mean. I guess I play these so often I just don't think about it so much any more, but that is very common in Chopin's writing.

Even with pedaling, you can definitely hear this method of playing a note clearly, it shouldn't be a problem that you can't even tell it is portato with a pedal. I played op 9 no 2 last night, and you should be easily able to detect this technique even when pedaling.

I just think that if you don't even know the term or how to play these, you are probably in over over your head in playing these pieces, I have trouble understanding how you could get to that level and not know this technique. I really suggest you get a teacher if you are trying to play this level of repertoire, or perhaps the ones you have had are not very good or you didn't retain anything, you should have learned that a long time ago, IMO.

ChristinaW,

Dang, this is harsh IMHO. If I were the OP, I wouldn't find these remarks terribly useful and might even feel belittled by such heavy-handed language.

We all have differing backgrounds and goals. I know from personal experience that one doesn't necessarily need a teacher to learn (or to know what repertoire is appropriate to learn). I also admit that in all my years of playing (including any number of pieces with staccato within a slur), I didn't know what it was officially called until very recently.

Sure, I had teachers as a kid who were mediocre at best; most of my grasp of terminology came from reading a pocket-sized music dictionary, and I just don't remember encountering the term portato. It was brought to light here in a discussion of slurs, ties, and the question of how a note could apparently be slurred to itself yet not be tied.

Anyway, I don't think one need know that term to have a pretty good sense of what's called for, whether by listening to a recording of the passage or just guessing from the transparency of the notation. If you combine the detachment of staccato with the binding of a slur, you have slight detachment. I find the literal translation of portato ("carried") to be far less revealing!

Steven

Might? I don't think there's any "might" about it.

Even my non-mediocre teachers didn't use the term. I had 3 years of college piano lessons as a music ed major and the only time I ever heard of portato was from my string teacher. And this was while playing pieces that I know have portato in them.

The term makes sense to me in relation to strings but not so much to piano.

Thanks for coming to my defense, Steven and ProdigalPianist.

Like I said, I lift the pedal after each note to lessen the legato, but I don't play them staccato. I didn't know that portato was that straightforward.

As for staccato with the pedal, I'm just not hearing a difference when compared to a normal note played with pedal. Perhaps it's the piano or the acoustics. Or perhaps this simply requires more ear training to know what to listen for.

Portato means that the notes have more "body" than in staccato, they can develop sound or resonance but are separated from each other.

I find it quite difficult to play. Do you have good recordings of your pieces? Maybe you could listen to them watching the score closely and get an idea of the portato sound you're after?

FWIW, my teacher has me play these in a "non-legato" fashion, i.e. lift your hand prior to striking the key to create a detached (and full-bodied) sound. If repetitive, I lift my hand in-between each note; the duration is also supposed to be about 3/4 of the normal duration of the note.
where are the pro-pianists ? how do they do it?(sorry if one of the responders is one..)

Portato on a violin .Play one note with first finger and then slide the finger up the string before dropping the next finger on the second note. Two notes written and one sliding along the string . Staccato on a violin is separating the bow to string contact / relative movement for split seconds. So using a pedal (down) in piano staccato makes no sense as the resonance kills the staccato . Pedal (up) to create staccato makes more sense but violin staccato happens a lot faster. Finger movement on a piano can make staccato without touching the pedal.There has to be a clear unambiguous difference that sounds right .Is there a parrallel effect in pianos that mimics pizzicato on a violin . There is no such thing a slow pizzicato note. How about marcatto .That gives a longer note duration and might be more useful . The range a violin effects might be a better guide to find the best word for piano players . Did Chopin play the violin ?
Slurred stacatto notation on a violin is more about the bowing stroke which would include the notes in that bow movement .

Please note that the thread you are replying to is from 2009.

Well spotted Bart .But the point is not completely clarified .Doubt is hanging in the air .Pianos and Violins have their differences . The words for pianos need to be as precise as words describing bowing actions . One can help the other . Maybe even 13 years from now .

The link below is one of the pieces the OP asked about all those years ago. There are staccato markings, slurs under two notes at the same time, phrase marks, and also pedal twice per measure - which would wipe out any staccato sound.

The way it was explained to me, is that for piano sometimes markings are there to say what kind of touch is to be used, rather than what kind of sound is to be produced. So this would be staccato touch, along with pedal, in order to produce the sound that the composer envisioned but did not express. This distinction might (?) be unique to piano.
The closest in violin might be "col legno" or "sul G" where following those instructions you end up with a particular quality of sound.

But I think in the recording you posted, the pianist is not using the pedaling indicated in the score. The notes marked staccato sound almost exactly like staccato or portato played without any pedal would sound.

In this video, I think Rubinstein plays the piece with more or less with the pedal as marked.


I also think that if the touch didn't affect the sound, indicating some special touch would not be meaningful.

I chose that link because it shows the notation involved. This being the Pianist Forum, and not the ABF, I figure most folks here understand enough about it and wouldn't have to check the recording.


I did not say that it would not affect the sound. I said that the "staccato" marking in the score was not necessarily an indication that a staccato sound was to be produced - whereas usually "staccato" means "produce staccato" (as opposed to 'play staccato' but also use the pedal). If it is for a staccato touch, and that can affect the sound. Chopin, being a pianist, would know what he was after and how to get it.

I've also seen arguments, however, that a good pianist already understands the piano and music well enough to not need be told what to do physically and that this might have been overkill, and also might have been a product of what was done in a given era especially.

Thank you for finding the Rubinstein recording.

I understand that portato includes use of the pedal, but I have seen different views expressed. It could also depend on the musical context and possibly the composer. In the Liszt Consolation 3, I play the portato notes staccato with half pedal. The half pedal joins the notes but allows the sound to decay away enough to have the staccato impulse.