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Tremolo (Pathetique) #350817
04/18/07 09:43 PM
04/18/07 09:43 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 24
Dallas, Texas
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InspiredbyLiszt Offline OP
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Musical Greetings everyone!! I am still having trouble with the left-hand tremolo in the Pathetique sonata. What else can I do to get the tempo of the tremolo up? THanks in advance.


-Works in Progress-
Bach: Prelude and Fugue,No.2,Bk.1
Beethoven: Sonata, Op.53
Liszt: Paganini Etude No.2
Debussy: Clair de lune
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Re: Tremolo (Pathetique) #350818
04/18/07 11:16 PM
04/18/07 11:16 PM
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Pacific Northwest, US.
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argerichfan Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by InspiredbyLiszt:
Musical Greetings everyone!! I am still having trouble with the left-hand tremolo in the Pathetique sonata. What else can I do to get the tempo of the tremolo up? THanks in advance.
This just amazes me. You're having trouble with the left hand tremolo in the Pathetique, yet you're also working on the Waldstein (per your signature), the ultimate tremolo (prior to Liszt) study?

Hey mate, let us take things one at a time. Make certain your tremolos "beat" properly with the right hand. It is not as easy as it sounds and you would be surprised at how many pianists can be sloppy about it. Hands separate! Metronome! But good Lord, the Waldstein will never yield properly until this earlier Beethoven sonata is mastered.

Good luck, didn't mean to sound rude...


Jason
Re: Tremolo (Pathetique) #350819
04/19/07 10:27 AM
04/19/07 10:27 AM
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Posts: 42
Basel, Switzerland
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Dabbler Offline
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Start with tiny rotations of your wrist. Just enough so that you can think of your fingers not doing anything and everything coming from the wrist. That might not be anatomically true, but thinking this way helped me originally. Keep the wrist as relaxed as possible, and if the arm starts to feel tense, have a break and play a bit in the 2nd movement smile Start with units of half a measure (and think of them as atomic motions) and have enough breaks. Yes, and maybe postpone the Waldstein a bit... And good luck, it'll feel easy after a while, definitely!

Re: Tremolo (Pathetique) #350820
04/19/07 01:44 PM
04/19/07 01:44 PM
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Posts: 2,097
Helsinki, Finland
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fnork Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by argerichfan:
This just amazes me. You're having trouble with the left hand tremolo in the Pathetique, yet you're also working on the Waldstein (per your signature), the ultimate tremolo (prior to Liszt) study?
You find Waldstein more difficult? Personally I think it's harder not to get tense and tired in octave tremolos - there's NO risk whatsoever in getting tired in the Waldstein. And by the way, the tremolo section is pretty much of exactly the same length in both pieces, so I don't see what makes Waldstein so much harder.

Re: Tremolo (Pathetique) #350821
04/19/07 08:50 PM
04/19/07 08:50 PM
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Posts: 14
United States
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the ripped pianist Offline
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first, you should practice slow, then speed up. your hand will get tired if you play it fast right away. for the timing, match the tremolo notes with the staccato notes in the right hand. try using a metronome too


Signatures are so overrated...
Re: Tremolo (Pathetique) #350822
04/19/07 09:05 PM
04/19/07 09:05 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,373
Pacific Northwest, US.
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argerichfan Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by fnork:
You find Waldstein more difficult?
Well yes, having played both sonatas. The last movement of the Waldstein in particular is extremely difficult. Frankly I completely fail to understand where you're coming from here and would imagine few others would agree with you. But whatever...


Jason
Re: Tremolo (Pathetique) #350823
04/19/07 10:54 PM
04/19/07 10:54 PM
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JBiegel Offline
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Hmmm--ok, try this: play the LH broken C tremolo slowly and only staccato--then gradually faster until it is up to tempo and by this time, you are playing it legato as written. Also, away from the piano, take your LH, raise it up like you are starting to wave 'bye bye' and just shake the hand back and forth--slightly curl your second finger. Do this on the piano with the broken octave tremolo--slightly curl the second finger--which helps open the hand and relax the rotation-as opposed to tight wristed. Believe me, it works.

Re: Tremolo (Pathetique) #350824
04/19/07 11:18 PM
04/19/07 11:18 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 314
somewhere in the space-time co...
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pianoid Offline
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somewhere in the space-time co...
fnork, The Pathetique is pretty beginner level. The Waldstein is one of the most demanding in the repertoire and it was Liszt's favorite Beethoven's piano work. I think that tells a lot.


gggEb!
Re: Tremolo (Pathetique) #350825
04/20/07 12:40 AM
04/20/07 12:40 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
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Pacific Northwest, US.
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argerichfan Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by pianoid:
fnork, The Pathetique is pretty beginner level. The Waldstein is one of the most demanding in the repertoire...
Thank-you for some sanity here. Tovey says it nicely: "The Waldstein Sonata is enormously more difficult than any set of techinical studies that could be made out of its passages. A performance of it up to the rhythmic standards of a good string quartet or orchestra is an exercise of first-rate athletic form..."

Beginners, after the obligatory Opus 49, will generally then study the Opus 13. The Waldstein is in an entirely different league and one that only serious students will ever attempt. Having played my share of Liszt and Chopin, I still found the Waldstein one of my biggest challenges. The Pathetique? I learned it as a young teen when the Waldstein was just a longing listen on the CD player.


Jason
Re: Tremolo (Pathetique) #350826
04/20/07 02:05 AM
04/20/07 02:05 AM
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drudged Offline
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Like what others said, it is definitely wierd that you would be taking up a monstrously intense piece like the Waldstein if you are having a hard time with the Tremolos.

here's what you do: Play the tremolos as a repeated octave. After that, break them into tremolos. Also, make sure to mark the beats (every two counts) of your tremolo so that you won't get tired easily and you won't mess the tremolo up.

With that said, I'd like to say another thing, and I apologize if it's been posted before. Stop the Waldstein first if you cannot play the Pathetique. I have played both sonatas and I could not put the Pathetique's technical difficulty into the same class as that of Waldstein since the Waldstein surpasses the difficulty of the Pathetique by a mile. Interpreting the Waldstein is also a monstrous challenge as well as playing it technically. I hate to say that if you continue playing the Waldstein if you can't play the Pathetique, then I'm afraid you'll just end up making a mess out of the Waldstein.

Let's compare the two:

Pathetique:
- Jumps in the First movement
- Tremolos in the First movement
- Voicing in the Second movement
- Rythm and grace in the Third movement
- Scales in the Third movement

Waldstein
- Long jumps in the first movement
- Awkward fingering and 3rd,4th,5th finger action in the first movement
- Turning of the hand and Thumb under techniques in the first movement
- Finger independence in the first movement
- Coordination and beating in the first movement
- Voicing in the Third movement
- Fast scales in the third movement
- Extremely awkward fingerings in the third movement
- Heavy left hand action in the third movement
- Difficult Arpeggio passages with pianissimo and subito fortes in the third movement
- Double hand run and coordination plus a near 30 measure long stretta which requires utmost and finished technique which a regular player could not pull off in the third movement
- Trilling with the 1+2 as well as playing melody with the weak 4 and 5 fingers
- Fast passages at prestissimo tempo and legato octave jumps in the third movement
- The ever so famous and painful double octave glissandi in the third movement (*Note, this has given me monstrous blisters which lasted for 2 long weeks)

As you can see, The Waldstein itself is a monster, yet an extremely beautiful piece, and I am saying this based on experience since I have played this piece and performed it publicly. So to sum it up:

Stop the Waldstein, practice the Tremolos slowly and as octaves, and choose an easier "Side" sonata (Op. 27 no.2 or Op. 31 no.2 are winners as well and not as monstrously difficult as Op.53)

Good luck and have fun playing!

Re: Tremolo (Pathetique) #350827
04/20/07 02:22 AM
04/20/07 02:22 AM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 116
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drudged Offline
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A Follow up post:

Quote
Originally posted by fnork:
Quote
Originally posted by argerichfan:
[b]This just amazes me. You're having trouble with the left hand tremolo in the Pathetique, yet you're also working on the Waldstein (per your signature), the ultimate tremolo (prior to Liszt) study?
You find Waldstein more difficult? Personally I think it's harder not to get tense and tired in octave tremolos - there's NO risk whatsoever in getting tired in the Waldstein. And by the way, the tremolo section is pretty much of exactly the same length in both pieces, so I don't see what makes Waldstein so much harder. [/b]
There is a hugeg risk of getting tired in the waldstein. Have you tried playing it at A Tempo? The near end part of the first movement and the fast runs could really sap your stamina off.

And in the third movement, almost every part of it has a way to sap all your strength and stamina off, as well as giving you burning and painful injuries. The first is the continous trill with playing with the 5th and 4th fingers. If you're new to that one, then I assure you that you'll get bone tired (Not really bone, but just tired) after playing that part since it is played alot of times throughout the piece and that passage is usually followed by a stamina drainer passage. The first one is the triplet sixteenth notes followed by jumps and rapid mini tremolo-ish passages for the right hand. In case you didn't know, there are tremolos in the third movement which require a greater tempo than the one being played in the Pathetique firstg movement.

The second passage is where the left hand will be pretty busy with an agitating melody being played by the right hand. Then after a while, they will switch jobs where the right hand will be busy and the left hand will play the melody. The fingering in the passage is extremely awkward and could cause you to have sore muscles the next day and prevent you from playing at your 100% fullest.

Then, there's the thirty measure stretta where the left and the right hands will be extremely busy. The fingering is this passage is more awkward than the second passage and it will sap the strength and stamina off of a regular pianist. Even my piano teacher admits that she has a hard time pulling this off sometimes and it's been in her repertoire for 40 years now! (Plus, she is also one of the well known piano teachers in the country) the right hand will go stretch, close, stretch, close, move, jump, stretch, etc... and the left hand will go stretch, turn, stretch, turn, jump, move, stretch, turn, etc... and the hands will have to move at the same time. Ehehe...This part requires an extremely finished technique to pull of. Like what my teacher said...This is one of the few passages in the piano repertoire which is not playable by everyone in the world. This will separate those who have the true gift to play piano or if they acquired their talent through lessons.

last but not least is the painful Octave glissandi which has injured countless pianists, myself included since my teacher believes that playing it with two hands is cheating Beethoven, and no matter what the editor says, is still altering Beethoven's true meaning, so I'm forced to play it that way. When I practiced this one, I had monstrous blisters which pained when ever I pressed my 5th finger into something. It took me 5 months of practice (And many more blisters) to finally pull this passage off. This also gave me hard skin on the tip of my fifth fingers :p

Sorry for that added reply on the Waldstein, but I just needed to clarify that the Waldstein actually a more ruthless stamina drainer and muscle burner than the Pathetique.

Re: Tremolo (Pathetique) #350828
04/20/07 02:27 AM
04/20/07 02:27 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,373
Pacific Northwest, US.
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argerichfan Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by drudged:
... I just needed to clarify that the Waldstein actually a more ruthless stamina drainer and muscle burner than the Pathetique.
And I remain utterly surprised that this needed to be pointed out. I too have played the Waldstein in public. The Pathetique too...


Jason
Re: Tremolo (Pathetique) #350829
04/20/07 02:29 AM
04/20/07 02:29 AM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 116
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drudged Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by argerichfan:
Quote
Originally posted by drudged:
... I just needed to clarify that the Waldstein actually a more ruthless stamina drainer and muscle burner than the Pathetique.
And I remain utterly surprised that this needed to be pointed out. I too have played the Waldstein in public. The Pathetique too...
Probably because it's just the opening. The opening of the Waldstein doesn't seem to bad. Just wanted to point it out in case the original poster did not know the heart of the Waldstein yet.

Re: Tremolo (Pathetique) #350830
04/20/07 02:39 AM
04/20/07 02:39 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,373
Pacific Northwest, US.
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argerichfan Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by drudged:
The opening of the Waldstein doesn't seem too bad.
Neither does the opening of the Opus 110. But at least its hallowed status as "late Beethoven" keeps all but the most determined fools from rushing in. laugh


Jason
Re: Tremolo (Pathetique) #350831
04/20/07 02:43 AM
04/20/07 02:43 AM
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Posts: 116
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drudged Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by argerichfan:
Quote
Originally posted by drudged:
The opening of the Waldstein doesn't seem too bad.
Neither does the opening of the Opus 110. But at least its hallowed status as "late Beethoven" keeps all but the most determined fools from rushing in. laugh
laugh Haha...Don't remind me (Shivers at the memories with Op. 110's Fuga)

Re: Tremolo (Pathetique) #350832
04/20/07 08:10 AM
04/20/07 08:10 AM
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JBiegel Offline
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In addition to my suggestion just a few posts above, I often instruct my students to simply practice a passage in another register of the instrument. In the case of the tremolo in the LH, which I believe is the thread, you might try it one octave lower since the strings are longer and it is more difficult to play it lower. Then, return to the register as written--it might seem a bit easier.

Re: Tremolo (Pathetique) #350833
04/20/07 08:46 AM
04/20/07 08:46 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 133
Germany
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florhof Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by InspiredbyLiszt:
What else can I do to get the tempo of the tremolo up?
Perhaps it will help you to practice the required technique without a piano. Just bring your forearm in a horizontal position and keep your fingers as if you were holding a ball. Then start rotating your forearm from the thumb-side to the pinky-side and back without moving your fingers at all. That's the movement you have to learn.

When bringing it to the piano begin with a slow tempo (which doesn't mean you move slowly but you take enough time from one movement to the next). To play all the notes make sure you lift one side of your hand when you lower the other.

---------------

http://www.pianistenschule.de

Re: Tremolo (Pathetique) #350834
04/20/07 10:28 AM
04/20/07 10:28 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,097
Helsinki, Finland
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fnork Offline
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I was talking about those specific tremolo passages - NOT comparing the COMPLETE SONATAS which is a completely different issue. The tremolos in those sonatas are about the same difficulty, that's my point, and as I said, some find it harder to play octave tremolos for a long time (pathetique) while smaller intervals are usually easier to control (as in Waldstein). And yes drudged, I've played both Pathetique and Waldstein - only first movement of Waldstein in concert though (so far!).

Re: Tremolo (Pathetique) #350835
04/20/07 05:29 PM
04/20/07 05:29 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 24
Dallas, Texas
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InspiredbyLiszt Offline OP
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I am so sorry for not letting you all know sooner, but I stopped working on the "Waldstein" months ago. I just haven't really been on here in a while. I will change my profile signature now. Thank you all so much for all of the advice.


-Works in Progress-
Bach: Prelude and Fugue,No.2,Bk.1
Beethoven: Sonata, Op.53
Liszt: Paganini Etude No.2
Debussy: Clair de lune
Re: Tremolo (Pathetique) #350836
04/24/07 07:36 AM
04/24/07 07:36 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 559
Japan
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Arabesque Offline
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Excuse me, I had a look at this score and that glissandi seems a regular descending octave scale plyed with 5 + 1. Do you usually play it as a glissandi? Maybe it is possible to play it as a glissandi in the key of C. If so, I have learned something new and interesting.

I agree that the trilling looks very difficult for so many bars and with an octave melody to be played over it.

I agree with one fundamental regarding octave tremeloes. It is vital to work from the wrist which is relaxed. I've never considered using the metronome on tremeloes - I am so casual and maybe my tremeloes are less than exact. In the Pathetique, I just switch on the tremelo and let it go. My advice - don't sweat it! If you worry you will become tense about it.


It don't mean a ting if it don't have dat swing
Re: Tremolo (Pathetique) #350837
04/24/07 09:16 PM
04/24/07 09:16 PM
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drudged Offline
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I play it as a glissandi. You overlooked the fact that it is played in legato and at prestissimo tempo therefore you have no time to lift your hand off the piano.

Re: Tremolo (Pathetique) #350838
04/25/07 04:31 PM
04/25/07 04:31 PM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,366
New Jersey
playadom Offline
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Where exactly in the 3rd mvt. is this 30 measure stretta?

Is it when the B section returns, but instead of being interrupted continues with lots of arpeggios?


Practice makes permanent - Perfect practice makes perfect.
Re: Tremolo (Pathetique) #350839
04/25/07 05:01 PM
04/25/07 05:01 PM
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McAllen, TX
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Brendan Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by JBiegel:
In addition to my suggestion just a few posts above, I often instruct my students to simply practice a passage in another register of the instrument. In the case of the tremolo in the LH, which I believe is the thread, you might try it one octave lower since the strings are longer and it is more difficult to play it lower. Then, return to the register as written--it might seem a bit easier.
I do this also. If I'm practicing a passage that is written in an extreme of the keyboard, I usually just bring it up to mid-register. Keeping your arm in an extended position for a while tires it out easier than having it closer to the torso.

Re: Tremolo (Pathetique) #350840
04/26/07 05:22 AM
04/26/07 05:22 AM
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JBiegel Offline
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True, Brendan. It also makes one play and hear the over-practiced passage in a different timbre of sound when taking it to another octave or section of the instrument. Here's something else I do with my students: When I feel they don't hear anything but the melody, I make them cross hands and play the given passage so they can hear what the left hand is doing--it amazes them that the LH has a shape and melodic line in addition to the RH, that often gets overlooked by concentrating on the RH melody. It helps provide support of the material around the main themes. One hears it all together, though the main theme still is brought out most.

Re: Tremolo (Pathetique) #350841
04/26/07 08:30 PM
04/26/07 08:30 PM
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drudged Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by playadom:
Where exactly in the 3rd mvt. is this 30 measure stretta?

Is it when the B section returns, but instead of being interrupted continues with lots of arpeggios?
To make it clear in case you didn't understand, the thirty measure stretta is in the "double hand run" part where the left hand and the right hand will be doing runs at the same time. It is before the prestissimo section.

Anyway, that suggestion with crossing the hands is brilliant! I tried it out and I realized that my left hand wasn't as developed as my right hand (Which is odd seing as I am left handed) so I noticed that me left hand needs to come out more. I realized a fault of mine with this one.


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