Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Petrof Hammer Update (Surprise!!)

Good evening all.

After some probing (e-mail to Geneva International and a message to the dealer), the owner of the dealer selling the Petrof confirmed that the Petrof IV I was considering does have Imategawa hammers. I was under the impression that he did not think that they were a good match for that piano, and that's the first he's learned that a recent Petrof had such a hammer.

Because this particular Petrof has been on the floor since 2002, and the owner thinks that I'd be happier with hammers that are more appropriately voiced for a Petrof grand, he will get another Petrof IV with Abel hammers (his preferred hammer), brand new, out of the box, and sell it to me at the same price if I like it. That seems like a very good faith effort to get my business.

In the meantime...I revisited the Estonia 5 ft 6 in. The dealer came down in price a little, but it's still $2K more than the Petrof. I really like the Estonia; I think it's a great piano. But I don't think it's $2K MORE piano than the Petrof, even though the salesperson indicated that Petrofs are of lower quality (less attention to soundboards used, pinblock problems). If the price difference had be lower, I probably would have bought the Estonia.

Instead, since the Petrof dealer is trying to be so accommodating, I'd like to give the Petrof another chance. I may have missed the boat on the Estonia (it had two deposits on it, in addition to mine), but I like both of these pianos very well and think I could be happy with either.

The quest continues...but I am tempted to throw in the towel!!

Kevin

I'm a fan of the Petrof, however with the choice between a Petrof IV and the Estonia, I would go with the Estonia. If its' a recent Estonia, it should have the Renner hammers and action.

That in itself is worth the 2K right there, assuming that the hammers and the action on the Petrof IV is not Renner.

While this is clear logic, some people may still prefer,of course, to go the other way.

It's as usual, a matter of personal taste.

However,if Petrof really uses Imagedawa hammers, I would consider this certainly a European first.

I know that some people pay a small fortune for having their pianos rebuilt with top quality German action and hammers. :rolleyes:

At least, Estonia comes with those already when brand spanking....

...NEW!

norbert

My impression is that Petrof's use of Imategawa hammers is very unusual, but I don't have numbers.

I will have to admit that I'm annoyed that a manufacturer would use a variety of components and not inform the customer or dealer. Althought I think Petrofs are excellent pianos, I'm starting to see why some dealers prefer the Estonias to the Petrofs. They don't like surprises and inconsistencies any more than consumers do.

If the Petrof dealer had been difficult to work with and had made all sorts of excuses as to why it's ok to have Imategawa hammers in that particular piano just to make the sale, then I would have bought the Estonia without hesitation. However, since the Petrof dealer is working very hard to make a sale, and I do think the Abel hammers would complement the Petrof, I want to give him a chance.

This decision is VERY difficult. I wanted to buy that Estonia...as Norbert points out, all of the "advertised" components are in the piano, I played it, and it's ready to roll. The next Petrof IV is a mystery...it's not yet available at the dealer, and so I haven't played it, and what if it has some "surprise" components/problems? Then I will have gambled and lost out on on the Estonia.

I must admit that I have a twinge of "non-buyers remorse" this morning.

Kevin

According to their website, Prambergers have "Platinum Touch Actions", "Special Knuckle Designs", "Hexagonal Hammer Shanks", and "Felt from Around the World."

No Renners, Abels, Isaacs, Imagedawas, or any of this other stuff.

Felt from Bangladesh.

(One might be tempted to actually play the pianos and decide which of them one likes better. NOT!)

How do you like the tone of the Petrof with the Imadagawa(sp?) hammers? They are not sub-standard hammers, and many re-builders are quite fond of them.

I like the Estonia piano, but I also like the Petrof IV, and for 2K less, ....

All things being equal, that's 2K worth of piano lessons, or enough for a Damp-Chaser, and a butt-load of tech fine-tuning.

Everything from Bangladesh has a bright gold sticker on it! (At least the advertised components aren't a "mystery".)

I am waiting with baited breath for the septagonal hammer shank design (was that one of the Steinway patents?)

Kevin,

Some manufacturers have switched from one supplier to another for various reasons, but this sounds like a situation in which the manufacturer uses whatever is in stock that day. One of the two hammers probably sounds better in a Petrof IV. But which is it? And why doesn't the manufacturer just stick with that supplier?

If it is to give the consumer a choice, then sell the piano as two different models.

However, two thousand dollars is too much to ignore--and the Petrof is bit bigger. I could have sworn that Estonias cost less than Petrofs when I was shopping in January.

What do the other Petrofs/Weinbachs at the dealer use for hammers? Can you tell, despite the piano size differences, what hammers are used? Do you like the sound of the Petrof IV with the Imedagawa hammers? Maybe that is enough.

By the way, does the dealer still have that magnificent Foerster 190? I would have loved to have owned it, but 40K was way out of my range.

Jolly,

I liked the sound of the piano -- AFTER it was voiced and regulated. I still detected a somewhat "harsh," almost metallic, sound when I pounded down on the keys, particularly in the treble. Before it was voiced, it was harsh/metallic and unpleasantly bright up and own the keyboard. But voicing made a huge difference...for the better.

The tech and the dealership's owner both said that they would not choose Imategawa hammers, as good as they may be, for a Petrof. In other pianos, they can be a good match. The just get too hard and create an unpleasantly bright sound sooner than other types of hammers. The tech said that they don't hold the voicing as well as Renner or Abel. The owner (who is also a technician) likes the Abel hammers for Petrofs and confirmed that he could get one for me with them.

And the $2K difference cannot be ignored...I've been checking around, and some very helpful people (recent buyers, techs, and even some dealers) have informed me that the price of the Estonia's a bit high. If I want an Estonia, I'll have to pay the premium to get it.

MarkS,

The metallic tone, even after voicing, may have been a foreshadowing of the tone yet to come on that piano. I don't know what types of hammers are in the other Petrofs and Weinbachs on the floor; I didn't ask. I'm not really picky about the name of the hammer -- Renner blue seems to be one of the hot names right now -- but I do know that spec sheets state that Petrof grands have "Petrof/Renner" action, and I consider hammers part of the action.

The dealer has an impressive Forster (I forget which model -- probably the one you mentioned), but it's way too big and $$$$ for me!!! (Lucky the person who can own that magnificent piano!)

Thanks to all for the feedback and insights.

Kevin

lb,

If the hard pressed imadegawa hammer is a better fit for the piano what does that say about the soundboard itself?

lb,

Sorry, I should be more specific.

If the function of the soundboard is to amplify and resonate the energy from the strings, then isn't it's ability to distribute and hold onto that energy for as long as possible an indication of it's quality?

And isn't quality defined by not only the type of spruce used but the skill in achieveing this function?

Won't a maker ability to overcome the rigidity on a board effect the hammer he chooses?

If a soundboard is to rigid won't it benefit from a hotpressed hammer's ability to deliver more energy into the soundboard?

I am very much with lb on this issue. I have always maintained that the most important factors in judging piano quality are company "commitment to quality" and "know how". All the sales points about the brand of this part or that, or who the scale designer is all fly out the window in the real world, as the worst pianos can be built from the best brand name parts, while a great piano can be built from parts no one ever heard of before.

I don't care what brand of hammer goes in. The question is does the maker know what they are doing with them? If they do know what they are doing with them, then it won't matter what brand they are. And if they *don't* know what they are doing with them, it still won't matter, unless they just happen to get lucky.

The same thing goes for rebuilders as well. I cannot respect the idea that the quality of rebuilding is to be judged by how many old parts were taken out and new parts put in or what the brand of those parts is. This kind of information tells you very little of what is useful to know.

Regards,

Rick Clark

So we all agree that the makers vision for the piano should dictate the parts used.

But doesn't the quality of materials and execution of design also dictate materials used to some degree?

10% or 15% the cost of the piano, amortized over decades...ya gotta get what you want, not what you'll just be "satisfied" with. You worry about it now, but once you get the piano home you'll never think about it again. No one ever does.

You can also try shopping around for a cheaper price. I took an 18-hour bus ride to buy a car once. You won't have to go that far to save $2K.

Alex,

My point is that the maker with high-quality intentions and know-how already knows how to select the right materials and parts for the job, and how to put them into the condition needed to achieve the desired end result. The end user need not be concerned about what forest the wood came from or under what national flag the hammer was created.

The high quality maker also excels at execution and does not have to depend heavily on gimmicky sales talk as regards
the "famous" piano designer, design "features" etc.

However, a mediocre piano maker needs to brag about the brand of the parts, or the forest of the wood, or the country the part comes from in order to impress the consumer with something. They don't have a lot to brag about in terms of the actual skill of designing and building great pianos.

On the subject of hammers for instance, I don't know of any "bad" hammers available through my parts suppliers these days. Abel, Renner, Imadegawa, Ronsen, Yadda, Yadda, and Yadda. But we both know that some people make much better pianos than others, and the brand name of the parts has almost nothing to do with it.

Anyway, that's the point I am trying to make.

As to specific subjects such as the selection of very expensive or scarce soundboard woods, from Stradivarius forests (or whatever the hype is), I think each specific subject should be argued separately. If we're talking about soundboards for instance, I think there are a lot of long-standing beliefs about wood selection that have very little credibility in terms of what can be proven scientifically. They are craftsman's beliefs that have been passed down over many generations, but that doesn't mean the original reasoning behind them is correct. For instance, the evidence seems to show that the concept that you need X grains-per-inch for a good soundboard is total hooey. And the idea that some Stradivariusness will rub off on a piano that got their sounboard wood from the same forest as the violins is to me comedy-- partly for what we are supposed to assume about the piano, but also because of what we are suposed to assume about the Stradivarius instrument ( a whole 'nother subject that could use a good dose of iconoclasty IMHO)

Regards,

Rick Clark

Kevin,

See what sort of deal you can get in a PIII. The ones I've seen recently have the Renner action and Renner Hammers. The dealer may even swing you the deal of a lifetime that you can't refuse. Then your destiny will become more clearer.

At the same time, shop the Estonia around and even see what other dealers can swing you on the 6'3". On a larger piano, you may find the tone and sound differences dramatic. On the mid fives range, the bass strings seem to cut off a tad short.

If I was you, I would get on that phone and phone Dealers within a few states and get pricings, and details. Price compare, research, ask questions, get comfortable, and make that purchase!