Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Sitka spruce vs European spruce soundboards?

Is there a difference on soundboard sound and overall quality?

Yes. There is a difference between the quality and sound of materials used in soundboards. European White Spruce ( What one might find in a Bosendorfer, Steingraeber, Grotrian, etc ) is not necessarily better than sitka from the US or Canada ( What one would find in a Yamaha, Steinway or Baldwin ). European Red Spruce ( what one would find in a Fazioli ) is not necessarily better or worse than sitka or white spruce. Canadian white spruce is not necessarily better or worse than Sitka etc

There are numerous factors that go into the sound of a particular soundboard panel and each of the woods regularly used for this purpose can sound wonderful to awful. Any of them can have higher or lower impedance in the different areas of the soundboard. All things being equal, sitka tends to be a bit louder and more percussive, but sitka can be part of a less percussive less loud design as well. White spruces can be just as loud and percussive as sitka if designed to be that way. Same for red etc etc

You can have cheap white spruce and expensive sitka spruce and vice versa. How is it aged, what part of the tree is it from , how does it look etc etc etc

The most important thing is the design and the execution of the design. I have heard pianos with soundboards that looked like they came from orange crates that sounded considerably better than other pianos that had the most expensive European White Spruce accessible only by horse drawn sleigh.

Design and execution of design and then are the materials good enough. Much of the expense in soundboard material is cosmetic although properly aging soundboard materials definitely gets expensive and contributes to stability, longevity and reliability.

I wish I could put my hands on the charts, but rather interestingly, the Eastern White spruce and European white spruce compare extremely out similar on a materials science comparison. When sampled, red spruce has a higher modulus of elasticity (stiffness) and modulus of rupture (strength under sheer forces). So essentially, stronger and stiffer for a board of similar grain orientation and grain density.

It would be interesting to interpret how that difference affects soundboard design and ultimately the performance, but even thosue important differences of materials properties matter less than the overall design, preparation and execution.

I know Keith is an expert dealer. However, it is exceedingly subjective and difficult to differentiate. Especially in pianos (vs say guitars). There are so many variables (room, case, action, strings, hammers and so on) that it is near impossible to work out what is soundboard and what is another variable.

Many (most?) people cannot tell the difference between a veneered carbon fibre soundboard and a solid spruce soundboard from a top quality maker.

Other variables, such as stainless steel strings vs copper wound, in my experience, are more discernible if all other factors are the same.

Keith - I don't have your experience in this area, but what you write seems entirely reasonable to me.
Would like to extend the OP's question to include laminated sound boards.
In your experience, can they sound as good?
BTW - looking forward to playing one of your (at least I think it was your) Estonias at a DC venue next Friday. I've heard it's a really nice instrument.

The soundboard needs to have been from a slow growth tree. The more growth rings per inch apparently the better.

Thank you all for your explanations. Whenever I read piano brochures, it talks about the Sitka spruce or European spruce and how the choice of spruce made a huge difference. Apparently it’s just one factor among many for a piano to achieve it’s voice.

I think this makes for some animated discussions on the piano forum. Of course the discussion about tonewoods is quite the debate among guitarists.

It is also a debate among violinists....it's been going on for about 400 years.

The same spruce used for piano soundboard are also used in guitar (acoustic guitar mainly) the same make often uses different soundboard material for the same design, so it’s very easy and safe to distinguish the quality between different spruces.

Stika has the most dynamic range out of all,tone is more mellow and less clear.
Adirondack red spruce have great texture to the sound (my favourite), also great dynamics.
European white spruce has the best clarity of all, the dynamic range are slightly inferior compare to Stika.
That Italian spruce from fimme valley has great overtone and warmth, although they are pretty rare for acoustic guitar.
Spruce are also known for “hard to open up”. Best made spruce guitars tends to sound the best after 10 years of playing, we are talking about 2mm of soundboard. So I assume natural dried, high quality spruce material would make a big difference.

But for piano the design really varies between brands and models, which are bigger factor than the wood itself. I have heard people putting different soundboard into a Steinway and they still sound like Steinway.

So I wouldn’t worry about it too much.

I will add to Steven Y. A. comments that red spruce has a higher ceiling than Sitka before it gets into the big ugly and breaks up. Also that red spruce takes a fair bit longer to open up and come into its own. I also think that the red spruce has a bit more complexity to the tone, to my liking.

LJC, there are very few old growth trees sitting in pianos as soundboard stock. There is not a lot left in the forests, and much of what is left is protected. Some of it is harvested, but with special permissions. Red Spruce wat so tapped out by the 1950's by overharvesting this very common wood. It has not been harvested for piano woods in any quantity, as we wait for the forest to replenish itself. We will all have been dead for 100 years by the time it is old growth again.

I personally have used every available spruce species and even used Douglas fir, and Cedar for piano soundboards. And i think sitka has become my least favorite. To me it just has a muddy tone when compared to Red Spruce. This confirms( in my mind) that the wood of choice for early piano makers (MH, SS, Chick, Knabe) all used Adirondack and only switched to Sitka because of availabilty. I'm currently using a sub-species of Norway Spruce which has a brown -golden color. Its not a white spruce. This wood is specifically harvested for musical instruments. Most others are harvested as for the lumber trade. One trouble i was having with it, is that its too high in quality, in that i was getting too much grain per inch. I asked them if i could get a lower quality for better tone? and you should have heard the silence!!! But its true, imperfections give better results than perfect. The Douglas fir soundboard i mentioned gave the most interest result, it taught me that what most of us are really talking about here is timbre. The tone color of DF was a dark color, and it sounded awesome. The striking but distinctive dark/light contrasting grain pattern would look a little odd in a grand. But it work great. The cedar to me has a very very pleasing tone quality. But trying to find clear quartersawn cedar was a challenge the last time i tried.

-chris

And I thought the whole point here was timber!

In my head, Tennessee is 4500 miles away or something, because my mind sometimes still thinks I'm in the UK (especially this week!), but I've just realized you're actually just under 4 hours drive away. I'd love to come and see your workshop sometime and see what you're doing. I've been fascinated by it for some time.

Fleetwood,
I appreciate that! In the meantime, its easier to sub to my youtube channel and follow me that way. My latest video should be of interest. In harmony with the thread, It shows that its not just about the choice of wood, but design and craftsmanship play a big part too.



Enjoy!!
-chris

Thank you everyone for sharing your knowledge. It’s quite the complicated task to be the inspector choosing which wood is desirable and which logs would be used for other parts. 😊

I am aware of the increasing difficulty in getting good soundboard wood. I was just commenting on what I have learned and read and that is that the more growth rings per inch the better. Are we cutting down too many spruce trees to have good tone wood? If yes, I'm not surprised. I am still wondering if carbon fiber is a good replacement for spruce.

Tighter grain does not make for better sound. It makes for stiffer, more impeded soundboards. A good board has varying stiffness. Too flexible in the treble gives weak treble. Too stiff in the bass gives poor bass. 8 GPI may sound infinitely better than 50 GPI. Tighter, straighter grain can look quite nice but does not necessarily sound better and may sound quite a bit worse.

Carbon Fiber is a good replacement for spruce if that is what you like sound wise. It does sound different and it responds differently than solid spruce. Laminated boards sound less different in my experience but I have still not heard a piano with a laminated or carbon fiber or other non solid spruce board that sounds and works as well as a great solid spruce board.

I have heard laminated boards that sound better than mediocre pianos ( and not necessarily inexpensive) with solid spruce boards.

I am not of the belief that a laminated board or a carbon fiber or other non solid spruce board can't sound great, I just haven't heard it yet or anything even close. Maybe the right designer is out there who can figure it out at some point. And for some, whose preferences are different from mine, current laminated boards and carbon fiber boards may be superior just like there are those who genuinely prefer digital to acoustic.

And that's the main problem with CF boards TOO STIFF. If I were to go in that direction, grass fiber boards show much more promise. Some guitar MFG's are experimenting with it. It also looks like wood. Also, there are plenty of fine Trees out there for soundboards. Its the poor forestry management and excessive regulations that cause unavailabilty. There's a whole forest out there of Adirondack spruce in New York, that is untouched for decades now. Then when some old growth trees fall naturally, they are left there to rot away. Just rotting away.

-chris

Grass fiber? You would have an unending source of material. If that works, sign me up for a hemp soundboard!

Chris, Bamboo is a member of the grass family, and very strong. Is this what you are referring to? Hemp is an amazingly strong material, but I do not believe it to be a member of the grass family. Or are you talking about something else? Please advise. Guitar builders have made instruments out of Bamboo, Hemp, and Flax

Regarding carbon fiber, I would not say that Carbon fiber soundboards are too stiff, as a blanket statement. Some CF boards may be too stiff, but that is a problem of design and not the fault of the material per se. CF is a material in which desired properties (such as stiffness) can be targeted to a quantifiable and precise accuracy. Sitka Spruce is prized for its strength to weight ratio also, hence its use for soundboards. Wood, as an organic material can be quite variable in its properties. I have heard a CF piano soundboard that sounded good and performed well. But, as Keith says, it is a different sound. To each their own.

Chris, about 10 or 12 years ago, I attended a one day seminar about piano soundboards given by Del Fandrich. He lamented the poor quality of soundboard materials that are available to us as rebuilders and manufacturers. He also said that there was only 7 or 8% old growth left in the forests. So almost all of those old growth trees are now protected. If they were not, all of it would be gone by now. Then what? Please understand that, a century ago, there was all but no forest management. I have seen many pictures of the White Mountains of New Hampshire where the entire sides of mountains were clear cut bald in the early 1900s. Red Spruce is a widespread native wood in this state, so that would have been part of the decimation. Part of forest management is careful conservation cutting of some of these old growth trees, chosen for the state of health in present and near future.

I don't know what counts as excessive regulation to you, so you will have to further enlighten us. The forests in Europe have been managed in a sustainable way for a very long time.