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It's invalid, because the chosen measurement is an arbitrary point of reference. therefore it can not be compared between pianos, as on EACH piano that point represents a completely different set of optimization goals from their respective engineering group. like i said, sweetwater should've consulted their physics department. that list is not only useless and it confuses the customer. what they've done is the same as measuring the color of hair on 50 runners, and we're supposed to now infer the athlete's athletic characteristics. there may be a correlation, but it's so weak that it's useless.
And still I see "individually weighted" mentioned for the PHA-4 Standard in many places. Not that I care, but they all get the idea from somewhere. If not from Roland, then where from?
"The Roland FP-30 uses the PHA-4 [Standard] (the 4 signifying 4th generation) hammer action on its keyboard. These trademark 'ivory feel’ keys are weighted individually and graded." - https://www.soundton.com/roland-fp-30-vs-yamaha-p-125/
"The lower notes feel heavier than the lighter keys do, just like on an acoustic piano. This is because the keys are individually weighted in the Roland FP-10." - https://keyboardkraze.com/roland-fp10-review/
you see here the first 21 keys use the same weights.
No I don't.
If the weights are very similar in weight, they may also look very similar.
And I don't see what's stamped on each hammer which could also shed some light on the mystery.
And according to the former "Jay Roland" (now "JayGVan" and not working with digital pianos anymore) the long key stick PHA4 actions had 7 zones. So, if people were confusing the various PHA-4 actions, they'd say that the "Standard" has 7 zones.
If you go to buy replacement hammers for the rd-2000 you find
Quote
The RD-2000 keybed was split into 4 zones and each zone used a different hammer. The group numbers 1 through 4 are stamped on the metal part of the hammer. N-1 through N-4 are for the white hammers and S1 through S4 and the black hammers. Be sure to select the group you need from the drop down box.
you see here the first 21 keys use the same weights.
No I don't.
If the weights are very similar in weight, they may also look very similar.
And I don't see what's stamped on each hammer which could also shed some light on the mystery.
And according to the former "Jay Roland" (now "JayGVan" and not working with digital pianos anymore) the long key stick PHA4 actions had 7 zones. So, if people were confusing the various PHA-4 actions, they'd say that the "Standard" has 7 zones.
It's quite a mystery this one. 😀
but was he referring to the old pha4 or the new pha4 ??
given the design on the new pha4 , I'm pretty sure they're the same weight, because the armature is very short, in order to make much of a difference, they'd need a Larger difference in weight. if the armature was Longer like the old pha4, the weights can look more similar.
I searched for spare parts too and it's hard to find hammer assemblies to begin with, and I also clocked out at 4 zones...
The inner skeptic in me leans towards:
PHA-4 Standard is their budget action, why would that be linearly graded, and the more premium PHA-50 be 4 zoned?
Maybe JayRoland was referring to 4 while key assemblies and 4 black key assemblies (which isn't 7, but still)?
All of the 3p review claims seem to be quoting from the same review kit language of "individually weighted keys." I'm inclined to believe that simply means each key has its own weights not that each weight is different.
I feel if Roland incorporated a feature in their lowest end budget action only used on Yamaha and Kawai's highest tier DPs and hybrids, they'd say something about it in their official marketing on the FP-10/FP-30 sites...
I don't have a dog in this race and would be happy to see Roland (and others) linearly weight their keys, I'm just extremely skeptical about it, and would be thrilled to be proven wrong.
From what I've been investigating, only a couple actions are lineal graded. I can at least confirm that the GF2 on my CA97 is a 4 zone graded action, I'd doubt any other actions to be better than that..
What's still surprising me is that Rolands PHA50 is 8 zone graded which is by far the best option among the "zone graded" actions if you like to feel that subtle differences between lower and higher keys.
I'm intrigued about the "new" TP400W present on the VIVO S9 and the NUMA X GT whether is it any better than other actions in this regard.
Obviously grading alone doesn't make any action better than the other, but I'm sticking to the sole and mere point of this subject without considering ny other factors (not the point).
What's still surprising me is that Rolands PHA50 is 8 zone graded which is by far the best option among the "zone graded" actions if you like to feel that subtle differences between lower and higher keys.
I'm not sure the PHA-50 is 8-zones. The RD-2000 uses the PHA-50 action, and looking at this listing for replace the hammers:
The RD-2000 keybed was split into 4 zones and each zone used a different hammer. The group numbers 1 through 4 are stamped on the metal part of the hammer. N-1 through N-4 are for the white hammers and S1 through S4 and the black hammers. Be sure to select the group you need from the drop down box.
It seems like there are different part numbers for black and white keys but still only four zones. Arguably, maybe the weighting is different between black and white keys because of the hinge position, but that isn't an effect of "grading", it's just using different parts of maintain the same feel across black and white keys. As I said above, I strongly suspect this difference in part numbers accounts for mistaken reports that Roland actions are 7- or 8-zone weighted...
This is the same as I've seen for other Roland actions including the PHA-3...and Roland never mentioned when PHA-50 was released that they increased the number of zones. You would think they would mention that when they talk about adding features like additional stabilization pins.
Grand Feel 1 is 4-zone weighted, asymmetrically (more of the bass keys are weighted the same, IIRC). I have not heard changes to GF2/GF3 in this regard. I can look for a pic if anyone is interested.
Usually, a piano will advertise if it is individually weighted, or "linearly graded", some of which include
Yamaha's highest tier Clavinovas: CLP-685/785 Yamaha AvantGrands Kawai Novus (and I think the newer S variants have linearly graded damper weights as well as hammer weights)
Isn't the GF3 also linear graded? Hammers may be 4-zone weighted but there might be additional weights within the keys (or underneath them) that make the individual weights feel differentely?
Isn't the GF3 also linear graded? Hammers may be 4-zone weighted but there might be additional weights within the keys (or underneath them) that make the individual weights feel differentely?
What about the GP series (Casio)?
Nope, afraid not. GF3 isn't linearly graded neither in hammers nor keys to my knowledge. There are counterweights under the keys (87 in the GF1, 88 in GF2/GF3) but I don't recall those being graded at all (nor are they on acoustic piano keyboards).
I don't know about the Casio. The cosmetic hammers themselves aren't individually shaped as on an acoustic (they look the same size to me), but they might have weights hidden in them or elsewhere in the mechanism?
It looks like some of the exposed bass hammers have more ridges on them, but that only speaks to general grading.
The x85 and x95 have additional counterweights built in, which IMO is an extremely odd feature to just add on, from an engineering perspective.
Originally Posted by Purdyd
And I wonder what that really means in reality. Is there truly 88 different hammers?
Are they graded by hand?
Yes to the first, almost certainly no to the second. The hammers themselves may be graded, but I highly doubt there is a Steinway-esque technician that individually crafts weighting for every key. I sure they don't even do that for the AvantGrands.
Originally Posted by Purdyd
Or is it just 10 zones or such a number.
If it clearly claims linear grading, I don't see why we shouldn't take that at face value.
Originally Posted by Purdyd
the grand touch is a very shy key action with no pictures it seems.
I've noticed over the years that a lot of the disassembly pictures and discussions have moved over to Facebook communities, or Chinese weibo/forums. I think honestly, Pianoworld is a bit of legacy piano community and we're in our sunset years; the trend and new generations are developing elsewhere. Just my $0.02.
In reality, I think the only real complexity is managing more part numbers in the inventory system.
The weighting is just a metal bar or slug cut to length. You can see how the Novus does it here:
Yamaha's DP hammer is just a metal bar. You can imagine they just line up 88 of them and grind them on a profile (in fact, I recall reading that some people have done just that in order to linearly-grade their own actions):
Again, nobody at the factory is weighing and cutting/profiling hammers. They just come fabbed as a set, and I bet due to manufacturing tolerances, a slightly shorter hammer may sometimes weigh the same or even more than a slightly longer one next to it. People can't really tell the difference in a 4-zone weighted DP, they're probably not going to notice variations in 88-zones.
Interesting Gombessa, so is the Yamaha CLP785 the only one linearly graded DP in this category?
The x85 and x95 have additional counterweights built in, which IMO is an extremely odd feature to just add on, from an engineering perspective.
Originally Posted by Purdyd
And I wonder what that really means in reality. Is there truly 88 different hammers?
Are they graded by hand?
Yes to the first, almost certainly no to the second. The hammers themselves may be graded, but I highly doubt there is a Steinway-esque technician that individually crafts weighting for every key. I sure they don't even do that for the AvantGrands.
I've noticed over the years that a lot of the disassembly pictures and discussions have moved over to Facebook communities, or Chinese weibo/forums. I think honestly, Pianoworld is a bit of legacy piano community and we're in our sunset years; the trend and new generations are developing elsewhere. Just my $0.02.
Several quotes relate to several confusions i have with the terminology i / we often see in the context of weighted actions. For instance “….. hammer-weighted action” is either a misnomer, or a poorly worded term, or a 🤷♂️ who knows what is meant? term . Hammer-weighted ,at face value, seems to refer to weighted hammer.
If the hammers have their own variances in weight not due to being purposely weighted or graded-weighted by a Steinway-esque tech, should the term more appropriately be linear-graded-key-weighted hammer action ? With the key-sticks being separate pieces in an action that also has hammers, are they both weighted, linearly, sometimes, or not, across different makes & models of actions AP and or DP?
Might as well included some of CEN’s observations re: touch-sensitive versus velocity-sensitive terminology with both apparently really referring to force-sensitive actions….. too many fuzzy terms that may help sell actions while not sufficiently describing the actions being sold🙂.
Last edited by drewr; 08/31/2211:36 AM.
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If the hammers have their own variances in weight not due to being purposely weighted or graded-weighted by a Steinway-esque tech, should the term more appropriately be linear-graded-key-weighted hammer action ? With the key-sticks being separate pieces in an action that also has hammers, are they both weighted, linearly, sometimes, or not, across different makes & models of actions AP and or DP?
99% of the time, the only variation in weighting is at the hammers, not in the keys, which are usually identical across the range.
Some DPs also have counterweights in the keys, and of those, some actions have varying numbers of counterweights (GF1), and I don't recall specifically but maybe some also have zoned or individually graded key counterweighting. But I think this is fairly rare. In DPs, none of this suggest individual technician prep, it's all just an assembly line.
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