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It's invalid, because the chosen measurement is an arbitrary point of reference. therefore it can not be compared between pianos, as on EACH piano that point represents a completely different set of optimization goals from their respective engineering group. like i said, sweetwater should've consulted their physics department. that list is not only useless and it confuses the customer. what they've done is the same as measuring the color of hair on 50 runners, and we're supposed to now infer the athlete's athletic characteristics. there may be a correlation, but it's so weak that it's useless.

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As for the grading zones, here a former (then current) Roland employee mentions 7 zones for the PHA-4, at least the long keystick versions: http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2392966/1.html

And still I see "individually weighted" mentioned for the PHA-4 Standard in many places. Not that I care, but they all get the idea from somewhere. If not from Roland, then where from?

"Roland PHA-4 [Standard] Action: 88 fully individually weighted graded hammer action keys WITH escapement, simulated ebony & ivory keytops & 5 levels of touch sensitivity" - https://www.pianotone.ca/roland-fp30-review/

"The Roland FP-30 uses the PHA-4 [Standard] (the 4 signifying 4th generation) hammer action on its keyboard. These trademark 'ivory feel’ keys are weighted individually and graded." - https://www.soundton.com/roland-fp-30-vs-yamaha-p-125/

"All 88 keys are individually and progressively weighted, heavier at the low end and gradually becoming lighter towards the top." - https://www.musicradar.com/reviews/roland-fp-10-digital-piano-review

"Key Action Weighted Individually PHA4" - https://bestdigitalpiano.net/reviews/roland-fp-30-vs-yamaha-ydp-144/

"The lower notes feel heavier than the lighter keys do, just like on an acoustic piano. This is because the keys are individually weighted in the Roland FP-10." - https://keyboardkraze.com/roland-fp10-review/

As for PHA-50:

"The keys are also individually weighted and graded. The left side keys feel heavy and gets lighter towards the right." - https://buydigitalpiano.com/roland-fp-90-review

Anyhow, even 7 zones should be enough.

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those sites might be confused with the older different pha4 actions.

the new one is almost certainly 4 zones. maybe 7, but i doubt it.

you see here the first 21 keys use the same weights.


Last edited by KawaFanboi; 08/02/22 08:07 AM.
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Originally Posted by KawaFanboi
you see here the first 21 keys use the same weights.

No I don't.

If the weights are very similar in weight, they may also look very similar.

And I don't see what's stamped on each hammer which could also shed some light on the mystery.

And according to the former "Jay Roland" (now "JayGVan" and not working with digital pianos anymore) the long key stick PHA4 actions had 7 zones. So, if people were confusing the various PHA-4 actions, they'd say that the "Standard" has 7 zones.

It's quite a mystery this one. 😀

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If you go to buy replacement hammers for the rd-2000 you find

Quote
The RD-2000 keybed was split into 4 zones and each zone used a different hammer. The group numbers 1 through 4 are stamped on the metal part of the hammer. N-1 through N-4 are for the white hammers and S1 through S4 and the black hammers. Be sure to select the group you need from the drop down box.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/163446332998?hash=item260e291e46:g:KFEAAOSwVMJcHqrR

I agree the descriptions are confusing but I can’t find any spare parts for Roland hammers that is more then 4 zones


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Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
Originally Posted by KawaFanboi
you see here the first 21 keys use the same weights.

No I don't.

If the weights are very similar in weight, they may also look very similar.

And I don't see what's stamped on each hammer which could also shed some light on the mystery.

And according to the former "Jay Roland" (now "JayGVan" and not working with digital pianos anymore) the long key stick PHA4 actions had 7 zones. So, if people were confusing the various PHA-4 actions, they'd say that the "Standard" has 7 zones.

It's quite a mystery this one. 😀

but was he referring to the old pha4 or the new pha4 ??

given the design on the new pha4 , I'm pretty sure they're the same weight, because the armature is very short, in order to make much of a difference, they'd need a Larger difference in weight. if the armature was Longer like the old pha4, the weights can look more similar.

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I searched for spare parts too and it's hard to find hammer assemblies to begin with, and I also clocked out at 4 zones...

The inner skeptic in me leans towards:

PHA-4 Standard is their budget action, why would that be linearly graded, and the more premium PHA-50 be 4 zoned?

Maybe JayRoland was referring to 4 while key assemblies and 4 black key assemblies (which isn't 7, but still)?

All of the 3p review claims seem to be quoting from the same review kit language of "individually weighted keys." I'm inclined to believe that simply means each key has its own weights not that each weight is different.

I feel if Roland incorporated a feature in their lowest end budget action only used on Yamaha and Kawai's highest tier DPs and hybrids, they'd say something about it in their official marketing on the FP-10/FP-30 sites...

I don't have a dog in this race and would be happy to see Roland (and others) linearly weight their keys, I'm just extremely skeptical about it, and would be thrilled to be proven wrong.


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From what I've been investigating, only a couple actions are lineal graded. I can at least confirm that the GF2 on my CA97 is a 4 zone graded action, I'd doubt any other actions to be better than that..

What's still surprising me is that Rolands PHA50 is 8 zone graded which is by far the best option among the "zone graded" actions if you like to feel that subtle differences between lower and higher keys.

I'm intrigued about the "new" TP400W present on the VIVO S9 and the NUMA X GT whether is it any better than other actions in this regard.

Obviously grading alone doesn't make any action better than the other, but I'm sticking to the sole and mere point of this subject without considering ny other factors (not the point).

Regards,
David


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Originally Posted by overthinker
What's still surprising me is that Rolands PHA50 is 8 zone graded which is by far the best option among the "zone graded" actions if you like to feel that subtle differences between lower and higher keys.

I'm not sure the PHA-50 is 8-zones. The RD-2000 uses the PHA-50 action, and looking at this listing for replace the hammers:

ebay

Quote
The RD-2000 keybed was split into 4 zones and each zone used a different hammer. The group numbers 1 through 4 are stamped on the metal part of the hammer. N-1 through N-4 are for the white hammers and S1 through S4 and the black hammers. Be sure to select the group you need from the drop down box.

It seems like there are different part numbers for black and white keys but still only four zones. Arguably, maybe the weighting is different between black and white keys because of the hinge position, but that isn't an effect of "grading", it's just using different parts of maintain the same feel across black and white keys. As I said above, I strongly suspect this difference in part numbers accounts for mistaken reports that Roland actions are 7- or 8-zone weighted...

This is the same as I've seen for other Roland actions including the PHA-3...and Roland never mentioned when PHA-50 was released that they increased the number of zones. You would think they would mention that when they talk about adding features like additional stabilization pins.


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Past: Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11, Kawai NV-10
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