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Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
Bruce, I am one who strongly advocates for *acceptance* of digitals, not because I think they are better or can match an acoustic, but because the world is a complicated place and people need options. And music shouldn't just belong to the people who have the money and space and circumstances to be able to afford and house an acoustic piano.

So, yeah, your question probably isn't directed at me then! whome

Jokes aside, I personally think there are various limitations to digital pianos, and there are indeed nuances that can't be produced on a digital but can be produced on an acoustic.

I just don't think that's a reason to argue that someone can't learn on a digital or that a child must absolutely get an acoustic or it will hinder their pianistic development.

Well said, ShiroKuro. I think that another way to say this is also along the lines of what I think Joseph Fleetwood was implying, which is that while a DP may have limitations, it is easy to ascribe lots of our own limitations to the pianos we play, when in truth, we can learn an awful, awful lot on instruments that are not superior specimens (whether acoustic or digital). That the quality of instruction and the student’s discipline and engagement are much more fundamental to progress than the quality of the instrument. And that there are many acoustic instruments out there that do not provide those subtle nuances that many of us feel quite passionately about… and in fact many acoustic pianos are poorly regulated, have never been voiced to anyone’s preference, and are very often pretty badly out of tune… all factors that make a good digital piano seem like a godsend, in comparison.

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I'll just say that the fact that I can't play like this has nothing to do with the limitations of a digital piano smile



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Why don’t we just let Steinway have the final say on this as it seems like they always have the final say on everything else? wink Here’s Tiffany Poon with the CEO of Steinway discussing digital pianos. Starts at the 15:00 min mark. Comments?

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Originally Posted by Jethro
Why don’t we just let Steinway have the final say on this as it seems like they always have the final say on everything else? wink Here’s Tiffany Poon with the CEO of Steinway discussing digital pianos. Starts at the 15:00 min mark. Comments?

If it felt that foreign to her, she either played a really poor digital piano, or she’s not a very good pianist? Realistically, being adaptable is the name of the game if your a pianist, you can’t take your piano with you. Some gigs may call for an acoustic others may require you to use a digital. If you can’t make it work on both that’s on you not on the instruments, acoustic or digital.

For most people, all other things being equal, they would prefer an acoustic. But in the situation proposed by the original poster, all things are not equal. Given the circumstances, think the other posters got it right so I’ll just throw my hat in with them rather than rehash their conclusions.

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Originally Posted by dogperson
@Joe
I have not played on many digitals, so I have a question. On your P515, are you able to produce the same nuances in tone and dynamics that you can on an acoustic?
Thanks for the info,

I can do a lot on it, it's not exactly the same no, and a grand piano is better, but it's not a huge jump from the NWX action to a grand piano. I can play very musically and expressively on the P515, and it can be very nuanced, it's a surprisingly expressive instrument. But no it's not the same as an acoustic. I don't change my technique for a grand, and after practicing on the P515 my interpretation is mostly there.

I will say, it might be different having a technique and knowing about sound concepts, and these things have to be developed somehow. Is it possible to develop tone concepts on a digital piano? I don't know because I don't know which pianists have played *exclusively* on digital pianos for a period of years before going to a music school. I doubt any have. But which pianist or piano student plays on only one piano for years? I always played many different pianos. In the local theatre there was a Steinway B, my teacher had a Bechstein, in high school there was a Blüthner, a Broadwood, and a Gebr. Niendorf (from the communist era!), then there were the ubiquitous Yamaha uprights, many digitals which at that time weren't even close to what they are now, you get the picture.


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Thanks Joe☺️


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
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Originally Posted by Jethro
Starts at the 15:00 min mark. Comments?

LINK

"not our core expertise"

"while some may say it's a decent substitute for a piano ..... I don't believe it is ..... I believe it's actually a negative substitute that ... people that have a digital or even an expensive one ... they think they've had a relationship with an acoustic piano, but they really haven't"

My response to this guy here is ----- people don't necessarily require a 'relationship' with an acoustic piano to generate beautiful and expressive music. People can generate music on both acoustic pianos and digital pianos. Regardless of what sort of instrument it is ------ the music generated/played by anybody can be (or actually is) priceless ------ special. The essence .... the gift ..... of music itself.

These two really need to get feet back on the ground --- and remember what music 'should' be about. Not about segregation, discrimination, peer pressure, arrogance etc.

If a 'device' (fully analog or fully digital or any mix of it) makes sounds for which we can use to make music, then that is special enough. Controlling it to generate music is special enough - already. No matter what it is.

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Additionally - for those people out there that might (possibly) really do feel that they have a relationship with acoustic pianos while playing digital pianos ----- this guy is actually way out of line ----- to say (for example) anybody out there that feels/thinks that they really do have a relationship with an acoustic (while playing on a digital piano) --- and to then say (to tell them) that they haven't actually got a relationship.

And actually - after thinking about it for a bit after he made that comment (as I hadn't even thought about that before!) ------ I really do feel that I'm playing an acoustic piano when I'm playing a digital piano. I don't think it's unusual at all. And this is coming from ----- like many people ----- being brought up on acoustic pianos, that just also happen to play digital pianos as well.

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Tiffany didn't ask him if people have a relationship with their Spirio, a device that makes it unnecessary for owners to even touch the piano.


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Originally Posted by MarkL
Tiffany didn't ask him if people have a relationship with their Spirio, a device that makes it unnecessary for owners to even touch the piano.

I think that's because the final side ----- the audio side - is full analog, so 'playing back' instructions with the spirio is still going to result in the actual acoustic piano doing its thing. Similar to how they play music with race car engines (eg. formula one car engines etc).

Also - while at it ----- even for digital instruments --- in order to get the audio to come out and heard by us, the final side of digital instruments is full analog as well.

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Tiffany Poon knows how to play. grin

Aside from action issues, the big "there's something missing" point for sound is heavily pedal-soaked music like Debussy.


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Regarding Debussy etc .... just learn what the pedal can do from young skywalker. LINK

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Originally Posted by BruceD
There is no way I can prevent this from being perceived as elitist or exclusive, although that is not my intention. Rather, to distinguish among different types and styles of music and if one type of instrument is more suitable to a broad range of styles than another depending on what is being played:

Is it conceivable that many who play on and strongly advocate digitals are not players of classical music where subtle nuances are perhaps (?) more than some digital keyboards can produce? Does the good digital piano - can the good digital piano - respond to the refined voicing that is required for the execution of much classical repertoire? Or, on a good digital, if there is any limitation, is that limitation only in the technique of the player?

I ask this from not having experience - with one exception - with digital pianos but because some advocate that even the best digital cannot replace a good acoustic while others say that the digital can do anything an acoustic can do.

There seems to be a difference of opinion on this question with strong proponents in either camp. Do answers to this question only strengthen the divide?

Regards,

You ask two basic questions, which I think point astutely straight at the heart of the acoustic vs digital conversation:

1. “Is it conceivable that many who play on and strongly advocate digitals are not players of classical music where subtle nuances are perhaps (?) more than some digital keyboards can produce?

This has been my observation. Those who play extremely advanced classical repertoire, and/or extremely advanced jazz and/or technically-complicated repertoire from modern composers seem to be aware of the extremely complex & intricate techniques & nuances of sound that the technically-advanced repertoire from any genre demands, and are aware that those things aren’t capable, in full, on 95% of digitals, with the exception of hybrids.

Those who play music that is equally beautiful but less complicated from a technical point of view and/or demands less complicated manipulation of nuance, tone, resonance…seem to think digitals are equal to acoustics. *I* think this is because the music they play doesn’t require the kind of technique or sonic interplay that can only be produced on an acoustic action or a hybrid with a superior VST.

I don’t think it has to be “elitist” or “exclusive” unless one feels those other styles of music are inferior just because they aren’t complicated, and I don’t find that to be the case. There’s beauty in every genre and every style whether simple or complicated. I find “One Summer’s Day” from Spirited Away by Joe Hisaishi as beautiful as the Chopin and Debussy I also enjoy. Classical is no more superior to other styles or genres. Nor is classical the be-all-end-all of complexity, because there are some stunning works in classical that are simpler than modern works; say, Gymnopédie by Satie, Prelude in B, Op. 28, No. 6 by Chopin, Träumerei by Schuman, or Consolation No. 3 by Liszt.

2. Does the good digital piano - can the good digital piano - respond to the refined voicing that is required for the execution of much classical repertoire? Or, on a good digital, if there is any limitation, is that limitation only in the technique of the player?

Disclaimer: I am not a globe-trotting concert pianist nor do I consider myself a world-class virtuoso. However, I am classical pianist with a repertoire consisting of advanced classical pieces, such as the more complicated etudes of Liszt, Chopin, some of the complicated work of Rachmaninoff & Scriabin, and the more demanding work of Bach & Beethoven. I perform regularly on a regional level. I say this to give an indication of what *my* particular demands of an instrument are.

That said, for almost a year, I had the CLP-785, which has the foremost flagship non-hybrid action that Yamaha offers. I tested the Kawai CA-99, which contains the foremost flagship non-hybrid action from Kawai, on several occasions, once, for two hours. I tested the Casio GP-510, containing the foremost flagship non-hybrid action from Casio, twice, once for an hour. They were superb at what they could do, and honestly, about 90% of what I needed to do I could do on those instruments. HOWEVER, there were STILL things which some demanded which I could ONLY perform on an acoustic. And that matters.

When you come down from the flagships, to the general digitals, it gets worse from there. I previously owned a Yamaha P-125 and P-515, and found that they were limitations in what I could accomplish on them, especially in pieces that require extremely fast finger motion, such as the “Un Sospiro” by Liszt or the “Revolutionary Etude” of Chopin. I also tried an instrument by Roland with a PHA 50 action (I can’t remember the instrument, but it was the larger digital that looks like a giant upright) and found the same limitations. There simply were things I could not do, which I could do on an acoustic. And I don’t think that points to any limitation on my part if I could perform them effectively on anything from a large concert grand, to a small stiffer baby grand, to a hybrid…but couldn’t on a digital. And my experience is not unique.

Moreover, I don’t think any concert pianist or virtuoso uses a digital as a practice or performance instrument, in any genre.

Also, for all digital instruments, hybrids included, the sound is inferior to an acoustic when demanding certain nuances of sound, effects, and dynamics. Nearly all digitals make use of inferior sampling that takes, at most, 5 or 6 samples of each key and the blends them together to emulate dynamic range of an instrument. This is inferior as an acoustic is capable of nearly infinite dynamic and tonal shadings within it’s range of volume. The modeling which Roland uses may be a bit better at at emulating these gradations, but it is still limited by the technology itself, which often produces an inferior, artificial tone.

Sampling software has gotten better at emulating this, especially those samplers with 20 or more layers. Vienna Symphonic Library is the golden standard at dynamic variation and uses at 100 levels of velocity per key in various techniques, for a total of 4200 samples per key for their most advanced instrument. That’s just an indication of the kind of variation a digital instrument needs to properly emulate an acoustic. 4,200 samples per key! Most digitals only have 5 samples per key or less, just blended together.

So, it’s not just the action of a digital that doesn’t approach an acoustic, but the sound as well. The sound is worse than the action, which is ridiculous as most digitals are capable of 127 levels of velocities: digital piano companies just lazy at sampling. The sounds that are good for less complicated playing, but isn’t sufficient for complicated playing.

And this goes back to your first point. If your repertoire is composed of beautiful music that doesn’t demand complicated nuance and interplay of sound or huge dynamic variations, you may be happy with the samples in your instrument. Otherwise, you won’t. If your repertoire is composed of beautiful pieces that don’t require super complicated fingerings and techniques, you may be happy with the action in most digitals. Otherwise, you won’t.

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Originally Posted by Jethro
Why don’t we just let Steinway have the final say on this as it seems like they always have the final say on everything else? wink Here’s Tiffany Poon with the CEO of Steinway discussing digital pianos. Starts at the 15:00 min mark. Comments?

Tiffany Poon is a great pianist; conservatory-trained who has performed regularly since childhood, has had some great performance experiences, and an impressive repertoire.

She’s also a Steinway artist, who Steinway heavily uses as a promotional tool because of her huge YouTube following.
And she, in turn, gets significant discounts on Steinway instruments, like the beautiful Steinway piano she’s haddespite being a struggling student who was not concertizing or recording regularly. She may also receive some kind of financial compensation.

Also, Steinway is, first and foremost, an acoustic piano maker who has shown no great interest in producing digitals, and whose use of technology in their pianos is only to the betterment of their acoustic instruments.

Thus, it would make sense that Tiffany would sit with a Steinway executive, and do a video wherein they both would extol the virtues of acoustic instruments over digitals to help Steinway sell their acoustic instruments.

And to an extent I agree: I do not disagree that the average digital is not a good choice for an extremely advanced player.

However, I think a hybrid with a superior VST is a sufficient choice. And I think both Tiffany and the Steinway executive would agree if Steinway made digital hybrids.

-

In other news, if Steinway made a digital hybrid, I would be willing to be hired to dance in the streets with a Steinway arrow sign to promote their business just to get my hand on one.

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To be clear, my position is that digital pianos do not replace acoustic pianos. When I play a concert, I do not want to perform on a digital piano except in very specific circumstances. One circumstance I'd consider it is when playing at rural music societies in Scotland where the nearest tuner lives 12 hours away (our country is the same size as Alabama but the roads make the journeys much longer!). Some of these venues have bought hybrids alongside their grands and when the grand is out of commission they give the artist the option of playing the hybrid. One did that as long ago as 2001 when the GranTouch GT7 was released. Of course, we're not talking about major classical music centers here, and I wouldn't like to be faced with that option in a large hall.

Whenever a brand new hybrid is released they end up costing as much as a grand piano. This was true for the first AvantGrand N3, the GranTouch GT7, the Roland V-Piano Grand, and even the V-Piano slab cost as much as a good upright. These companies know that this is a very hard price range for digital pianos especially when they don't fully match up to the acoustic grand.

For me, the advantage of the Yamaha N1 is having that grand piano action without the need for tuning, and being able to practice with headphones. The current line up of AvantGrands is more than good enough for practicing on, but even with that I'd still like to practice on a good grand. It's like when I used to only practice on uprights, I'd still like to do my finishing work on an expensive grand.


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Originally Posted by Taushi
However, I think a hybrid with a superior VST is a sufficient choice. And I think both Tiffany and the Steinway executive would agree if Steinway made digital hybrids.

In other news, if Steinway made a digital hybrid, I would be willing to be hired to dance in the streets with a Steinway arrow sign to promote their business just to get my hand on one.

Steinway is 99% of the way there. The Spirio R models have a full acoustic keyboard and action, and hammer sensors needed to record and monitor playback. Steinway has already licensed a virtual modeled piano built by Pianoteq, so they have a sound engine available even if they don't want to create one in-house.

All they are missing is a $50 bar of metal and foam for a hammer mute rail. And maybe the software to enable real-time MIDI out (or presumably a bridge to the iPad app which must be able to accept that for recording anyways) whistle


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Are you saying Steinway is working on a hybrid as we speak?

Surely, I must’ve misread your post; apologies in advance for my indiscretion.

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Originally Posted by Pete14
Are you saying Steinway is working on a hybrid as we speak?

No, just I'm saying that they have almost everything they need in place, IF they ever wanted to release either a silent piano, or a hybrid smile Personally, I doubt Steinway would ever release a hybrid.


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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by Taushi
However, I think a hybrid with a superior VST is a sufficient choice. And I think both Tiffany and the Steinway executive would agree if Steinway made digital hybrids.

In other news, if Steinway made a digital hybrid, I would be willing to be hired to dance in the streets with a Steinway arrow sign to promote their business just to get my hand on one.

Steinway is 99% of the way there. The Spirio R models have a full acoustic keyboard and action, and hammer sensors needed to record and monitor playback. Steinway has already licensed a virtual modeled piano built by Pianoteq, so they have a sound engine available even if they don't want to create one in-house.

All they are missing is a $50 bar of metal and foam for a hammer mute rail. And maybe the software to enable real-time MIDI out (or presumably a bridge to the iPad app which must be able to accept that for recording anyways) whistle

Agreed!

I can understand why some of the more “luxury brands” have been hesitant to jump fully into the digital market. Even as recently as 10 years ago, there was still a pretty noticeable gap between digitals and acoustics.

But now, the gap has closed tremendously with hybrid-action technology advanced modeling technology, and advanced sampling technology.

With a good well-calibrated VST, you can’t even tell the difference sometimes.

Yamaha & Kawai’s hybrids play well and look beautiful. The Casio-Bechstein collaboration, though not truly hybrid, is lovely, especially the polished 510.

A singular Steinway hybrid could be an excellent entrance for them into the digital market, while still maintaining their “luxury”/“exclusivity” brand. A gorgeous Steinway hybrid, with a Model D action inside, sensors on both hammers and keys, real dampers, and a beautiful cabinet like the N1x or NV10 would be awesome.

*Homer Simpson voice* “Mmm, Steinway hybrid with Model D action…agghhh” smile

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Originally Posted by Joseph Fleetwood
To be clear, my position is that digital pianos do not replace acoustic pianos. When I play a concert, I do not want to perform on a digital piano except in very specific circumstances. One circumstance I'd consider it is when playing at rural music societies in Scotland where the nearest tuner lives 12 hours away (our country is the same size as Alabama but the roads make the journeys much longer!). Some of these venues have bought hybrids alongside their grands and when the grand is out of commission they give the artist the option of playing the hybrid. One did that as long ago as 2001 when the GranTouch GT7 was released. Of course, we're not talking about major classical music centers here, and I wouldn't like to be faced with that option in a large hall.

Whenever a brand new hybrid is released they end up costing as much as a grand piano. This was true for the first AvantGrand N3, the GranTouch GT7, the Roland V-Piano Grand, and even the V-Piano slab cost as much as a good upright. These companies know that this is a very hard price range for digital pianos especially when they don't fully match up to the acoustic grand.

For me, the advantage of the Yamaha N1 is having that grand piano action without the need for tuning, and being able to practice with headphones. The current line up of AvantGrands is more than good enough for practicing on, but even with that I'd still like to practice on a good grand. It's like when I used to only practice on uprights, I'd still like to do my finishing work on an expensive grand.

Agreed.

My N1X is my preferred practice instrument, but a fine concert instrument is still my performance preference.

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