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Hi All.

Feb 23, 2021, I ordered an Upright White CLP-745 from Piano Guys. 1 year and 3 months later and I'm still waiting!

Did I get scammed? I payed in full. Thought Piano Guys was a reputable enough dealer for the CLP series of pianos, but they don't even give me updates until I ask (every 3 months or so). I just keep hearing that they are coming in slow and that I need to wait or change my order. I got a new job and things got busy here so I let the matter rest thinking "but of course within the next month, I'll have it". I am about done with this and feel like a complete idiot.

How would you approach the situation? Cancel and refund? Ask for a discount on a higher model that is in stock?

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Over a year? For a higher volume 745? I don't think you got scammed, but clearly there was poor business practice on their end and a bit of inattention/inactivity on yours. If they can't ship an in-production model within 30 days, best practice would be to refund your money proactively. Holding it a year is NOT "we're waiting on Yamaha to send to us and advocating for your as a customer," it's "they took your money and forgot about you."

Step 1: Call them to cancel and get a full refund immediately. Unless you'd like to wait another 9 months and make it a full two years? smile

Step 2. If you want, ask them what they have in stock right now and can ship today. Insist on a sizable discount for holding your money for SO LONG without sending the product. Or, look for another retailer.

What have you been playing while you've been waiting?


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Originally Posted by Étude Brute?
Hi All.

Feb 23, 2021, I ordered an Upright White CLP-745 from Piano Guys. 1 year and 3 months later and I'm still waiting!

Did I get scammed? I payed in full. Thought Piano Guys was a reputable enough dealer for the CLP series of pianos, but they don't even give me updates until I ask (every 3 months or so). I just keep hearing that they are coming in slow and that I need to wait or change my order. I got a new job and things got busy here so I let the matter rest thinking "but of course within the next month, I'll have it". I am about done with this and feel like a complete idiot.

How would you approach the situation? Cancel and refund? Ask for a discount on a higher model that is in stock?

It's possible that there just aren't the units entering the country.
Kawai aren't fulfilling deliveries of many units till the Spring of 2022. They've made that known.
It's possible Yamaha are now having issues too.

The chip shortage and covid manufacturing delays could be causing this.

Can you cancel and buy a used model instead?


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I’ll tell you why it’s been a year:

Any 745 that comes into their store is being sold for a higher price than you paid, you know, ‘cause inflation; it’s as simple as that!

The right thing to do would be to honor your purchase/price, but so long as they’re fetching more money for the 745, they’re gonna keep you waiting.

Since you ‘purchased’ (about a year ago) prices have gone up exponential due to inflation and a whole lotta price gouging!

My advise: get your money back and buy a ‘place-holder’ (P-515?); wait out the inflation storm till it deflates into a ‘buyer’s market.’ At that point there will be plenty of deals to be had; without the long waits.

Fingers crossed, we go into a recession! Then you can really get some clearance-level deals out there (because they’re desperate), and with a little luck, a few of these ‘guys selling pianos’ go out of business; and then who’s laughing?

Personally, I’ll be waitin’ for the recession to hit before I make them an offer they -literally- can’t refuse (if they refuse, there goes their electric bill for that month, and as we all know, a dealer can’t function without power, electric power)!


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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Over a year? For a higher volume 745? I don't think you got scammed, but clearly there was poor business practice on their end and a bit of inattention/inactivity on yours. If they can't ship an in-production model within 30 days, best practice would be to refund your money proactively. Holding it a year is NOT "we're waiting on Yamaha to send to us and advocating for your as a customer," it's "they took your money and forgot about you."

Step 1: Call them to cancel and get a full refund immediately. Unless you'd like to wait another 9 months and make it a full two years? smile

Step 2. If you want, ask them what they have in stock right now and can ship today. Insist on a sizable discount for holding your money for SO LONG without sending the product. Or, look for another retailer.

What have you been playing while you've been waiting?

You are right. They haven't even proactively reached out since the original order. Always me. I've had nothing in the mean time but the new job and my son has not been able to start lessons. I hesitated to cancel because I was happy with the price (3,299 + white MT-5 headphones matching white bench); wife loved the color; prices have since gone up and I was afraid to start the waiting game all over again.

What a poor experience and now I have to start looking and waiting all over again. So frustrating!

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Originally Posted by Pete14
I’ll tell you why it’s been a year:

Any 745 that comes into their store is being sold for a higher price than you paid, you know, ‘cause inflation; it’s as simple as that!

The right thing to do would be to honor your purchase/price, but so long as they’re fetching more money for the 745, they’re gonna keep you waiting.

Yup. sleaze bag dealers.

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Originally Posted by Doug M.
It's possible that there just aren't the units entering the country.
...
The chip shortage and covid manufacturing delays could be causing this.

Can you cancel and buy a used model instead?

No doubt that this caused delays, but no unsolicited updates for a year and 3 months? That is unacceptable when they already have my payment in full. They are still offering them on the website too! I guess that those poor saps (like me) will bee waiting a full 2 years without knowing it. Terrible practice?

Would be interesting to learn of someone that ordered the same white 745 after me (Feb 23, 2021) and now has it. I'd go bananas on the seller /(>_<)\. If Pete happens to be right and they are doing this.... it is time to go scorched earth

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Originally Posted by Pete14
I’ll tell you why it’s been a year:

Any 745 that comes into their store is being sold for a higher price than you paid, you know, ‘cause inflation; it’s as simple as that!

The right thing to do would be to honor your purchase/price, but so long as they’re fetching more money for the 745, they’re gonna keep you waiting.

I'm an agreeable person. Sometimes to a fault. The kind that experiences that fault and accepts my part in leaving myself open to it. But god help them if I EVER find this guess to be true.

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I can echo Pete... hopefully we go into a recession so that things change again.. but I believe this won't happen so quickly :S


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Originally Posted by Étude Brute?
I'm an agreeable person. Sometimes to a fault. The kind that experiences that fault and accepts my part in leaving myself open to it. But god help them if I EVER find this guess to be true.

I think Pete can be a bit melodramatic at times smile They already took your money, there's no reason not to ship out unless something fell between the cracks. If they really wanted to play games with customers, they'd take the money of someone paying the full pandemic price, and not ship to THEM while taking new orders. And they'd do it 10x over in a massive fraud. That's almost certainly not what's happening here. But the fact of the matter is you paid, and they didn't deliver. And they didn't rectify the situation when you contacted them. It's time to get your money back rather than continue to wait and hope the situation changes after 15 months.


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> How would you approach the situation?

I had a CLP-785 on order with Piano Guys for about 6 months with a 10% deposit. I got tired of waiting and canceled the order. They refunded the deposit immediately and without question.

Before I ordered from Piano Guys I'd checked with my local dealer, they had none in stock and they couldn't predict when they'd get one. After I cancelled the Piano Guys order I checked again with my dealer and by dumb luck it turned out they had one just come in. They didn't have back orders so when I called I got the one they had, that day. So if you check around you might be able to get what you're looking for elsewhere, more quickly. But the shortages seem to be real and I don't know how to guarantee that you'll be able to find one on any particular schedule using any particular strategy.

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Cancel the deal. There’s no reason to wait a year and three months for any instrument, unless it’s being made of solid gold, produced by the ancient piano spirits, and signed by Beethoven & Elton John. Yes, we were in a global pandemic that literally shut down the planet and severely impacted supply chains. However, at this point, production is ramping back up to normal levels, and, the instruments that had already been produced but were sitting in warehouses/cargo ships/storage have also been allowed to enter/be released within the countries they were sent to. So that issue is slowly dissipating. In the past year, I’ve been able to get a CLP-785 (in September 2021) and an N1X just this month, and those are in far less production than the 745. All three of my local dealers have had 735s and 745s in stock regularly, because there’s more demand for those. The larger Yamaha dealer in my area has a surprising level of stock given the claims of slow production. Same with the local Kawai dealers. More importantly, when I reached out to them both times expressing a desire to upgrade, they were proactive and kept me in the loop about their stock.

Now, there may be a bit of an issue because you ordered a WHITE instrument. Obviously those are in far less production than the standard Black instruments, in general. Rosewood instruments are harder to find, but the alternate colors like red and white that Yamaha produce are even more difficult, especially as a result of the pandemic & supply chain/production issues. That may be the ONLY reason I’d be willing to excuse these people. But regardless, there need to be updates. And, more importantly, they should’ve let you know ahead of time that alternate color instruments can be a bit of a unicorn.

So I’d say cancel it. I’d echo fred768 in saying try a local dealer and see how that goes. You would be surprised how much better local dealers are than these larger companies. They are more attentive, generally more well-educated on their product, and often, cheaper. And because they may not get patronized as much as the big stores, they probably actually have the instrument you’re looking for because they don’t sell as much.

Check Yamaha’s website for local dealers in your area by putting in your zip code in the Store/Dealer Locator, and contact them.

That said, I’m willing to concede that a white instrument may be harder to find. Are you willing to settle for a black one? If not, your search may be a bit more difficult, and I’d say to check not only with local dealers, but with small dealers who may be a bit further away.

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Money should not have gone out of your account until that piano was on its way. If it has, something's wrong.


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Also, “Etude brute” as your screen name?

*applause*

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Originally Posted by peterws
Money should not have gone out of your account until that piano was on its way. If it has, something's wrong.


I present to you the FTC MOTO rule:

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-16/part-435

Quote
The Rule, issued in 1975, requires sellers who solicit buyers to order merchandise through the mail, via the Internet, or by phone to have a reasonable basis to expect that the sellers can ship within the advertised time frame, or, if no time frame is specified, within 30 days. The Rule also requires that, when a seller cannot ship within the promised time, the seller must obtain the buyer’s consent to a delay in shipping or refund payment for the unshipped merchandise.

If paying by credit/debit card, the card network OpRegs also have something to say about accepting merchants charging prior to shipment....


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I don't think my experience violated this rule, they told me delivery would be slow. But if I had to do it again I would ask directly how many instruments they had back ordered and how many units similar to my order they had shipped in the past six months. If they wouldn't divulge that information I wouldn't place the order.

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Originally Posted by Taushi
Also, “Etude brute” as your screen name?
*applause*

Ha! Yes. I was kinda proud of that one. Clever/Stupid pun screen names are embarrassingly high on my priorities list. Worth it.

And you are 100% right. Just received a response that I am next in the queue. Huh, I wonder ( -_-) But better than that, I Found 2 local dealers via the site you suggested. I'm going to give them a visit and see what they have. Should have done that ages ago. If I find something before the order is filled, I'm going to cancel and have some words with Piano Guys. Pretty irritated about it all but got some great advice here.

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Odd. After having talked to Piano Guys a couple of times, I was under the clear impression that they only asked for a 10% deposit on a DP until it came into stock and could be shipped, and that the deposit was fully refundable at any time.

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Originally Posted by Étude Brute?
How would you approach the situation? Cancel and refund? Ask for a discount on a higher model that is in stock?

Wow. So I thought I was patient, waiting 6 months and 4 visits of piano techs to get a regulation issue of a few keys resolved for my NV-10.

I would never have accepted this, though. A waiting time of 1-3 months is completely normal for a high-end piano. In COVID-times, I would have extended this to 4-6 months. But 1 year and 3 months? That is idiocy. I would send them a letter (by post) stating that you want either:

- A definitive update and delivery date no later than 6 weeks from now, and have that confirmed within 10 working days by post. If that date is not met, you want your full deposit and payment back, + 4% interest (which could easily be $200 for a piano of this price).

OR

- They give you a full refund of deposit and payment right now, to be done within 10 working days. (Waive the interest; it is an incentive to either be sure about the delivery date, or to immediately refund.) Also confirm this refund by post.

State that you will take them to court if you don't have the piano (by the stated delivery time) or your money (by the stated delivery time, or within 10 working days if they choose not to deliver).

At least, this is the normal way of doing things such as this in the Netherlands. It is called "ingebrekestelling": it means that you are going to unbind the purchase contract, through the court if necessary, because the seller did not deliver (or refund) in a reasonable amount of time. You may have to look up to see if and how you can set this up in your country.

Last edited by Falsch; 06/22/22 09:22 AM.

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15 months wait. If there were no ETA after a 'reasonable' amount of time ..... then just cancel the order. Respecting the customer is important.

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