Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards ES110 half pedalling and Pianoteq's response

Well! Insensitive soul that I am (I'm a man after all) I been playing this for getting on a couple of years now, often (but not always) on Pianoteq.
I decided to adjust the half-pedalling facility on Pianoteq, to suit a particular piece of music I'm attempting to play, but I was wanting to do this some time ago anyway. The pedal feels most times, almost like an on-off switch. There is some semblance of reduced response, if you're careful with the right foot.
The ES110 is a little better in this respect,

I found it impossible to adjust effectively in either ES110 or Pianoteq mode.
The former has no adjustment facility; the latter does, but it might as well not have.
The annoying thing is you can hear it work on both, but only if you're so very precise with your foot movement. But any adjustment I make on Pianoteq doesn't seem to enable a better spread of "audio-perceived pedal involvement" if you see what I mean.

Any solutions out there?

Peter,

Assuming a standard TRS pot-driven pedal, my guess is the ES110 takes the voltage response from the pedal, and its internal electronics determine 1) what voltage to to translate to pedal output, 2) what the active voltage range is from off to on, and 3) how many steps to output, including to midi.

If you are experiencing a hard limited range of half-pedaling (say, in the middle of the travel), there's not much you can do in PTQ other than change the pedaling response at the given velocity. I think this would be a hardware limitation and what you've need to do is find a way to reduce the voltage range output by the pedal (break out a soldering iron and find/install a new pot?)

If the DP provides continuous output along the entire travel range of the pedal, then you are in luck and you can adjust pianoteq (or use a midi app to intercept the pedal input) to respond differently to the range using a custom curve.

The easiest first step is to get a midi monitoring tool and see what the DP outputs for pedal as you press it down. How many steps are there between 0-127? And do they occur across the full range of your foot travel, or within a very limited distance?

on my 520, there's an option to make the midi value sweep a longer depth of the pedal. check if es110 has it. but i've never felt vsts or digital pianos really needed half pedaling.

the pedal is continuous. it's optical.

According to Kawai, the ES110 used with the F-10H pedal, should give half-pedalling:

https://www.kawai-global.com/suppor...-compatible-with-my-kawai-digital-piano/

There's also this thread, in this forum:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...ai-f-350-vs-f-10h-pedals-pedal-sets.html

If you want to see what MIDI values are actually transmitted from the pedal:

. . . Start up Pianoteq;

. . . Go to File -> Audio/MIDI setup -> MIDI

You'll have a little window that reports the MIDI signals sent by the ES110, including the signals sent when the damper pedal is pressed.

Press the damper pedal down _very slowly_, and you'll see how many "half-pedal" values are generated. They should be "Controller 64" messages, with values in the range 0::127.

In Pianoteq's "Velocity" window (which lets you map "incoming MIDI velocity" to "Pianoteq MIDI velocity"), which shows up by default, there's a right-arrow to the right of "Velocity". Click on it twice, and you should have the "half-pedal" mapping window.

That window will let you map the range of MIDI half-pedal values generated by the F10H pedal (interpreted by the ES110 electronics), to the range 0::127 that Pianoteq uses.

HOWEVER:

If the F10H goes from MIDI 0 to MIDI 127 with 1/4" of travel, I don't see any way to change the _mechanical_ range over which that change occurs. That was established by Kawai engineers, and the pedal seems to be rather sophisticated.

Test, and report back . . .

1. Continuous on a budget DP often means discrete steps. On some DPs it only outputs 3-5 values to MIDI (e.g., 0, 64, 127).

2. How is it optical? Where is it getting power? Looks like the ES110 only has a standard 1/4“ TRS jack for sustain to me?

I took it apart before to lubricate it as it started to squeak, it's not a pot, because the pedal does not touch the pcb at all. there's a little sensor on the board pointing at the tongue of the pedal.

I just did some measurements, it has a total travel of ~15mm, 3mm lost motion, between (3-1] mm, ~10 mm of travel it hits 127. on 520 there's an option to make it hit 127 earlier than 10mm, this is just the max sweep.

It outputs continuous, but it's stair step, it goes from 0, 1, +3...+3 127

I have the triple pedal board.
Now, on PTq pedal window, if I press the pedal slowly, a max of 15 vertical lines show up on the screen, indicating the operating points along its travel. If however, I operate it quickly, I'll get it down to 3.
Releasing it , there appears to be less gardations. But they are there, and they seem impossible to control to my liking!

output on 520 pressed slowly, but the lines don't tell you anything, the readout sweeps the entire 0-127 range in 0,1, +3, 127 steps,

what does your readout say peterws.

You have an ES520 no? I think that may use a different damper pedal than the ES110. Do you have the 3-pedal unit, and if not, what is the pedal model# and the connector type on it?

Regardless of whether it's a pot or noncontract optical, the fact remains that the pedal sends a raw signal to the DP, and it depends on the DP to determine the range/sweep and number of supported MIDI output values.

it's the same pedal. i have the single not the triple, the triple might be different

My guess is the DP may be economizing on steps based on how fast you press/release the pedal? I might suggest starting with a setting such that full pedal down or 127 is the only "full pedal" in PTQ, and have everything not "0" be half-pedal. If that works, you can try to move or add additional gradations.

Kawaifanboi, thanks for the additional detail on your setup.

I just counted the outputs, there are 40 steps total within 0-127, between +3, +4, +5. So it's not an even +3 across the range. I get all 40 steps readout in pianoteq regardless of how fast I press it. in both directions depress and release.

but here's the thing, even if the piano gives these outputs, it does not mean the scan rate actually captures the range like that, it might, but maybe not. it will still have an internal scan rate, and on the output it will just patch in the other midi values. I say this because you shouldn't be worried about whether you get more or less sweep, as long as it captures the general motion, it's enough even if the output is stair stepped, don't sweat it.

https://www.kawai-global.com/product/f-10h/

Nice, optical sensing single pedal included.

In the NV-10, there are also steps, ranging from 3-7 depending on how quickly you press it. The range itself is fairly narrow, and you can adjust where the range sits, but you cannot extend or contract the range itself.

some more testing, in pianoteq the half pedaling seems to respond acoustically around midi 75 and above, so that's the range where you need to make sure the curve is responsive.

at peterws, put a 3/4 inch of wood under your heel, this will make the resting depression of the pedal shallower, so it will feel like you have more resolution to control the position of the pedal.

if the heel is at ground level, the resting position takes up too much of the travel.

It sounds a tad complicated. But I'll first try the single pedal which came with the ES110; it's still in the box, never been used. I'm curious! I also have a Yamaha single pedal issued with the 515. It is a very nice looking switch which should be in the bin. I fquickly ound out that the 515 also had a limited pedal operational capability even with the triple board.
I got a much better response on my DGXs. And the Roland FP50 seemed to work good.
Really, it's no big deal, but my interest is piqued! I should be able to figure something out. K.Fanboi is obviously a guy after my own heart . . .