2022 our 25th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
84 members (AaronSF, AndrewJCW, Azalingchan, AJB, beeboss, belcanto89, Belger1900, 20 invisible), 986 guests, and 313 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 9,839
peterws Offline OP
9000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 9,839
Well! Insensitive soul that I am (I'm a man after all) I been playing this for getting on a couple of years now, often (but not always) on Pianoteq.
I decided to adjust the half-pedalling facility on Pianoteq, to suit a particular piece of music I'm attempting to play, but I was wanting to do this some time ago anyway. The pedal feels most times, almost like an on-off switch. There is some semblance of reduced response, if you're careful with the right foot.
The ES110 is a little better in this respect,

I found it impossible to adjust effectively in either ES110 or Pianoteq mode.
The former has no adjustment facility; the latter does, but it might as well not have.
The annoying thing is you can hear it work on both, but only if you're so very precise with your foot movement. But any adjustment I make on Pianoteq doesn't seem to enable a better spread of "audio-perceived pedal involvement" if you see what I mean.

Any solutions out there?


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

"[Linked Image]"
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 6,889
G
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 6,889
Peter,

Assuming a standard TRS pot-driven pedal, my guess is the ES110 takes the voltage response from the pedal, and its internal electronics determine 1) what voltage to to translate to pedal output, 2) what the active voltage range is from off to on, and 3) how many steps to output, including to midi.

If you are experiencing a hard limited range of half-pedaling (say, in the middle of the travel), there's not much you can do in PTQ other than change the pedaling response at the given velocity. I think this would be a hardware limitation and what you've need to do is find a way to reduce the voltage range output by the pedal (break out a soldering iron and find/install a new pot?)

If the DP provides continuous output along the entire travel range of the pedal, then you are in luck and you can adjust pianoteq (or use a midi app to intercept the pedal input) to respond differently to the range using a custom curve.

The easiest first step is to get a midi monitoring tool and see what the DP outputs for pedal as you press it down. How many steps are there between 0-127? And do they occur across the full range of your foot travel, or within a very limited distance?


Bosendorfer D214VC ENPro
Past: Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11, Kawai NV-10
Joined: Apr 2022
Posts: 360
K
Full Member
Online Content
Full Member
K
Joined: Apr 2022
Posts: 360
on my 520, there's an option to make the midi value sweep a longer depth of the pedal. check if es110 has it. but i've never felt vsts or digital pianos really needed half pedaling.

Last edited by KawaFanboi; 05/19/22 09:56 AM.
Joined: Apr 2022
Posts: 360
K
Full Member
Online Content
Full Member
K
Joined: Apr 2022
Posts: 360
Originally Posted by Gombessa
If the DP provides continuous output along the entire travel range of the pedal, then you are in luck and you can adjust pianoteq (or use a midi app to intercept the pedal input) to respond differently to the range using a custom curve.

the pedal is continuous. it's optical.

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,994
C
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
C
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,994
According to Kawai, the ES110 used with the F-10H pedal, should give half-pedalling:

https://www.kawai-global.com/suppor...-compatible-with-my-kawai-digital-piano/

There's also this thread, in this forum:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...ai-f-350-vs-f-10h-pedals-pedal-sets.html

If you want to see what MIDI values are actually transmitted from the pedal:

. . . Start up Pianoteq;

. . . Go to File -> Audio/MIDI setup -> MIDI

You'll have a little window that reports the MIDI signals sent by the ES110, including the signals sent when the damper pedal is pressed.

Press the damper pedal down _very slowly_, and you'll see how many "half-pedal" values are generated. They should be "Controller 64" messages, with values in the range 0::127.

In Pianoteq's "Velocity" window (which lets you map "incoming MIDI velocity" to "Pianoteq MIDI velocity"), which shows up by default, there's a right-arrow to the right of "Velocity". Click on it twice, and you should have the "half-pedal" mapping window.

That window will let you map the range of MIDI half-pedal values generated by the F10H pedal (interpreted by the ES110 electronics), to the range 0::127 that Pianoteq uses.

HOWEVER:

If the F10H goes from MIDI 0 to MIDI 127 with 1/4" of travel, I don't see any way to change the _mechanical_ range over which that change occurs. That was established by Kawai engineers, and the pedal seems to be rather sophisticated.

Test, and report back . . .


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 6,889
G
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 6,889
Originally Posted by KawaFanboi
the pedal is continuous. it's optical.

1. Continuous on a budget DP often means discrete steps. On some DPs it only outputs 3-5 values to MIDI (e.g., 0, 64, 127).

2. How is it optical? Where is it getting power? Looks like the ES110 only has a standard 1/4“ TRS jack for sustain to me?

[Linked Image]


Bosendorfer D214VC ENPro
Past: Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11, Kawai NV-10
Joined: Apr 2022
Posts: 360
K
Full Member
Online Content
Full Member
K
Joined: Apr 2022
Posts: 360
I took it apart before to lubricate it as it started to squeak, it's not a pot, because the pedal does not touch the pcb at all. there's a little sensor on the board pointing at the tongue of the pedal.

I just did some measurements, it has a total travel of ~15mm, 3mm lost motion, between (3-1] mm, ~10 mm of travel it hits 127. on 520 there's an option to make it hit 127 earlier than 10mm, this is just the max sweep.

It outputs continuous, but it's stair step, it goes from 0, 1, +3...+3 127

Last edited by KawaFanboi; 05/19/22 10:30 AM.
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 9,839
peterws Offline OP
9000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 9,839
I have the triple pedal board.
Now, on PTq pedal window, if I press the pedal slowly, a max of 15 vertical lines show up on the screen, indicating the operating points along its travel. If however, I operate it quickly, I'll get it down to 3.
Releasing it , there appears to be less gardations. But they are there, and they seem impossible to control to my liking!

Last edited by peterws; 05/19/22 10:29 AM.

"I am not a man. I am a free number"

"[Linked Image]"
Joined: Apr 2022
Posts: 360
K
Full Member
Online Content
Full Member
K
Joined: Apr 2022
Posts: 360
[Linked Image]

output on 520 pressed slowly, but the lines don't tell you anything, the readout sweeps the entire 0-127 range in 0,1, +3, 127 steps,

what does your readout say peterws.

Last edited by KawaFanboi; 05/19/22 10:34 AM.
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 6,889
G
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 6,889
You have an ES520 no? I think that may use a different damper pedal than the ES110. Do you have the 3-pedal unit, and if not, what is the pedal model# and the connector type on it?

Regardless of whether it's a pot or noncontract optical, the fact remains that the pedal sends a raw signal to the DP, and it depends on the DP to determine the range/sweep and number of supported MIDI output values.


Bosendorfer D214VC ENPro
Past: Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11, Kawai NV-10
Joined: Apr 2022
Posts: 360
K
Full Member
Online Content
Full Member
K
Joined: Apr 2022
Posts: 360
it's the same pedal. i have the single not the triple, the triple might be different

Last edited by KawaFanboi; 05/19/22 10:35 AM.
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 6,889
G
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 6,889
Originally Posted by peterws
I have the triple pedal board.
Now, on PTq pedal window, if I press the pedal slowly, a max of 15 vertical lines show up on the screen, indicating the operating points along its travel. If however, I operate it quickly, I'll get it down to 3.
Releasing it , there appears to be less gardations. But they are there, and they seem impossible to control to my liking!

My guess is the DP may be economizing on steps based on how fast you press/release the pedal? I might suggest starting with a setting such that full pedal down or 127 is the only "full pedal" in PTQ, and have everything not "0" be half-pedal. If that works, you can try to move or add additional gradations.

Kawaifanboi, thanks for the additional detail on your setup.


Bosendorfer D214VC ENPro
Past: Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11, Kawai NV-10
Joined: Apr 2022
Posts: 360
K
Full Member
Online Content
Full Member
K
Joined: Apr 2022
Posts: 360
I just counted the outputs, there are 40 steps total within 0-127, between +3, +4, +5. So it's not an even +3 across the range. I get all 40 steps readout in pianoteq regardless of how fast I press it. in both directions depress and release.

but here's the thing, even if the piano gives these outputs, it does not mean the scan rate actually captures the range like that, it might, but maybe not. it will still have an internal scan rate, and on the output it will just patch in the other midi values. I say this because you shouldn't be worried about whether you get more or less sweep, as long as it captures the general motion, it's enough even if the output is stair stepped, don't sweat it.

Last edited by KawaFanboi; 05/19/22 10:48 AM.
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 6,889
G
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 6,889
https://www.kawai-global.com/product/f-10h/

Nice, optical sensing single pedal included.

In the NV-10, there are also steps, ranging from 3-7 depending on how quickly you press it. The range itself is fairly narrow, and you can adjust where the range sits, but you cannot extend or contract the range itself.


Bosendorfer D214VC ENPro
Past: Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11, Kawai NV-10
Joined: Apr 2022
Posts: 360
K
Full Member
Online Content
Full Member
K
Joined: Apr 2022
Posts: 360
some more testing, in pianoteq the half pedaling seems to respond acoustically around midi 75 and above, so that's the range where you need to make sure the curve is responsive.

at peterws, put a 3/4 inch of wood under your heel, this will make the resting depression of the pedal shallower, so it will feel like you have more resolution to control the position of the pedal.

if the heel is at ground level, the resting position takes up too much of the travel.

Last edited by KawaFanboi; 05/19/22 11:18 AM.
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 9,839
peterws Offline OP
9000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 9,839
It sounds a tad complicated. But I'll first try the single pedal which came with the ES110; it's still in the box, never been used. I'm curious! I also have a Yamaha single pedal issued with the 515. It is a very nice looking switch which should be in the bin. I fquickly ound out that the 515 also had a limited pedal operational capability even with the triple board.
I got a much better response on my DGXs. And the Roland FP50 seemed to work good.
Really, it's no big deal, but my interest is piqued! I should be able to figure something out. K.Fanboi is obviously a guy after my own heart smile. . .


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

"[Linked Image]"

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
Piano Buyer - Read the Articles, Explore the website
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
My Perfect Piano
by drewhpianoman - 07/06/22 02:44 PM
Looking to upgrade my piano
by TX3Q - 07/06/22 12:57 PM
Music theory - Key identification
by Animisha - 07/06/22 11:21 AM
Yamaha P-125 String Resonance
by Petzold - 07/06/22 09:50 AM
Piano saver system? does everyone use this?
by NJ_Piano_Mom - 07/06/22 09:00 AM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
What's Hot!!
FREE June Newsletter is Here!
--------------------
Forums RULES, Terms of Service & HELP
(updated 06/06/2022)
-------------------
Music Store Going Out of Business Sale!
---------------------
Mr. PianoWorld's Original Composition
---------------------
Sell Your Piano on our world famous Piano Forums!
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums43
Topics213,831
Posts3,205,880
Members105,737
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2022 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5