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Hakki Offline OP
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Ron, thank you for the update.

I will try to load a new build soon, implementing the improvements you have suggested.

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Ron, I have uploaded Build 29.

In this build:

New note selection named "Midrange Note" and new percentage selection named "Midrange-Treble (%)" is added to over pull settings. Note ranges are revised accordingly. The new scheme for over pull is as follows now:

A0 to Last Wound Note - Bass (%), default is 10%
Last Wound Note to Midrange Note - Midrange (%), default is 20%
Midrange Note to Treble Note - Midrange-Treble (%), default is 25%
Treble Note to Treble Taper Note - Treble (%), default is 35%
Treble Taper Note to C8 - Decreasing to 15% from Treble(%)

"Clear Display On Decay" setting is added to Settings>Display.
After the inharmonicity measurement and -if over pull is on, over pull measurement- of the note is complete, if set to ON, this setting is effective and enables to tune to the attack tone. Default is OFF.
It should work with both auto and manual mic levels.

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Thanks - I might not get to this new build until next week.

I was able to try the new file using generic values on a very old Kimball grand that was all over the map before tuning. It worked very well. I wasn't sure how you meant to proceed with the next pass. I ended up remeasuring each note, but I suppose the app is more set up to begin again with a new file to start the measuring process? I didn't want to end up with two new files for the same piano...

Ron Koval


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www.ronkoval.com




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Hakki Offline OP
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Ron, you are correct that files created with generic values are considered temporary and can be deleted after the first pass.
Or kept with a naming that implies it does not have the actual measured values but generic values, if you find any use in keeping that file.

The application is set to begin with a new file for the measuring process and fine tuning because of the sequential structure of the calculations.

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I have uploaded Build 30.

In this version:

"Clear Display Time" setting is added to Settings>Display to adjust the time when the display is cleared after first tone.

This setting is available if "Clear Display On Decay" setting is activated.

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Had multiple crashes today while tuning - mic icon locked on and app unresponsive all while trying to remeasure the iH of F4.

I had been trying to check the repeatability of the iH constants when the first pass is close to the limit of the app measuring - somewhere around 30 cents.

After this test, I believe it would result in the better calculation to do a pitch adjustment without measuring to get the piano close to pitch before gathering information. I noticed consistent changes to the iH constants after bringing the piano up to pitch. Either use a similar piano file or the blank options when starting a new file. (I believe that is the recommendation that comes with the app)

I was working my way down from the treble break, tapping the iH number to remeasure. When I got to F4, the program locked. I closed out, swiped away and tried again. One time the app just bailed out on its own back to the home screen. I gave up trying to get a new measurement on that note!

Spinner seems better with more options, but it is pretty cumbersome to go through the menu taps if microphone or display options need to be changed during tuning. Maybe a press and hold on some icon to go directly to a menu? Unless you come up with a setting that is stable and responsive from A0-C8.

I had a few notes around F3 an below that the spinner or Ih bar response was slow to appear. I tried tapping the mic on and off and turning off the auto level. It resolved without me knowing what made the difference.

Overpull settings worked well once I figured out exactly what the different ranges were.

Ron Koval


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www.ronkoval.com




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Ron, thank you for the update.

I would like to know a few parameters to better assess the problems and try to reproduce.

Were you using Build 30?
Was the new Clear Display On Decay setting active?
If so, was the Clear Display Time at its default position (middle)?
Was over pull active?
Were you on Auto Semitone or Manual?

You are correct that the app also recommends to bring the piano closer to pitch before making fine measurements. The tension of the string affects the IH value.

I am glad that new over pull ranges worked well.

EDIT: When you say mic icon locked, do you mean the icon with slash or filled icon?

Last edited by Hakki; 05/16/22 05:18 PM.
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Ron, another question:

When you had difficulty with F4 IH, did you try pressing and holding on center screen to have the border around inharmonicity value measure again?

This disables some inherent checks and might help resolve IH measurement.

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Build 30. Clear display was active, if I remember correctly - middle position.

I was finished with overpull, so that was off.

I believe either auto semitone, or auto A0-C7

The mic icon was filled when the screen filled, not slashed. I tried tapping the icon, but nothing happened.

I didn't try the press and hold on the center screen.

Ron Koval


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Ron, thank you for the clarification.

Probably it is due to the newly added Clear Display setting.

I will try to find the bug.
For now maybe you might consider turning it off, at least during IH measurements.
Sorry for the inconvenience.

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The Clear display setting - I was unsure whether there was any difference for the pianos I was working on yesterday, except maybe the top octave or so? I think it would take experimenting a lot more to tweak the settings to find the right combination between the mic and display settings.

No worries about any inconvenience, that's part of beta testing! I think you've really put together a great approach to creating the tuning calculation and making that workable for techs in the field.

Ron Koval


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www.ronkoval.com




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Ron, could you please give more information about, which settings you feel to change during tuning, related to which certain situations, to make the display stable and responsive.

Quote
Spinner seems better with more options, but it is pretty cumbersome to go through the menu taps if microphone or display options need to be changed during tuning. Maybe a press and hold on some icon to go directly to a menu? Unless you come up with a setting that is stable and responsive from A0-C8.

Just cross posted!

Last edited by Hakki; 05/17/22 09:32 AM.
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Ron, thank you for the kind words.

I have uploaded Build 31.

In this build there is a minor change in Clear Display option.

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I have uploaded Build 32.

There was a glitch in Build 31 about Clear Display On Decay feature.

Please update to Build 32 if you are on Build 31.

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Just a quick note on the Clear Display On Decay feature:

If you play a note successively quicker than the decay threshold the display might stay empty. Please allow for a small allowance between successive hits in such a situation.

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The display.

What I like as a working tech, is:

1. to see on the keystrike a clear indication of where the pitch is in relation to the calculation so I know which way, and how far to go.
2. as the pitch is moved, to see that happen as close to realtime as possible to be able to connect hand/eye.

A real frustration involves #2, where we move the pin, hear a change, yet the display doesn't reflect that change, or lags behind. Often letting a little silence between keystrikes to refresh the display helps, but that disconnects the eye/hand coordination. This has been most common in the treble and some of the options you've put in have helped.
Another frustrating situation is when the display jumps from +10 to -10 with seemingly nothing in between, no matter how fine the pin movement - I believe this happens most often with strings that are false or produce some other noise confusing the system.

The frustrations due to #1 are the occasions where the display doesn't show anything - pretty rare now, though it has happened a few times in the low bass and high treble. Most often I turn off the auto level and play with the attack number to get a response.

Ron Koval


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www.ronkoval.com




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Ron, thank you for your detailed explanation.

Quote
The frustrations due to #1 are the occasions where the display doesn't show anything - pretty rare now, though it has happened a few times in the low bass and high treble. Most often I turn off the auto level and play with the attack number to get a response.

Actually if this happens when Clear Display On Decay is set, just having a second of silence and then hitting the key will resolve the problem. There might not be any need to make any adjustments in the settings.
Also, when returning to the main screen from another screen, allowing a second for the app to reset for the environmental noise will help.

Quote
A real frustration involves #2, where we move the pin, hear a change, yet the display doesn't reflect that change, or lags behind. Often letting a little silence between keystrikes to refresh the display helps, but that disconnects the eye/hand coordination. This has been most common in the treble and some of the options you've put in have helped.

Spinner without the smoothing option setting would be most responsive in this case. Smooth Spinner option might have a little bit lag, similar to the Indicator in Fast mode. Indicator obviously will have increasing lag, as setting is changed to Medium, Slow and Legacy modes.

Quote
Another frustrating situation is when the display jumps from +10 to -10 with seemingly nothing in between, no matter how fine the pin movement - I believe this happens most often with strings that are false or produce some other noise confusing the system.

Exactly. False beats, awkward amplitude changes are among the reasons for this. Modes with more lags like Indicator Slow/Legacy might help with those notes.

I will try to improve the display response in the following builds, so that there won't be much need for tweaks in the settings during tuning.

But until then, I will put some controls on the main screen that will change; Indicator and Spinner response, Clear Display On Decay and Microphone modes temporarily on the fly, without needing to go to the settings screen.

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Originally Posted by Hakki
Ron, thank you for your detailed explanation.

Quote
The frustrations due to #1 are the occasions where the display doesn't show anything - pretty rare now, though it has happened a few times in the low bass and high treble. Most often I turn off the auto level and play with the attack number to get a response.

Actually if this happens when Clear Display On Decay is set, just having a second of silence and then hitting the key will resolve the problem. There might not be any need to make any adjustments in the settings.
Also, when returning to the main screen from another screen, allowing a second for the app to reset for the environmental noise will help.

.

Thanks - I wondered about that little hesitation when returning to the tuning screen.

Ron


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www.ronkoval.com




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Now that I think about it, if I was playing a note when returning to the main screen, would that throw off the app reset for auto level?

It might be good to have a pause before the screen appears to set the environmental noise - that way we wouldn't be tempted to start tuning!

Ron Koval


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www.ronkoval.com




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Originally Posted by RonTuner
Now that I think about it, if I was playing a note when returning to the main screen, would that throw off the app reset for auto level?

It might be good to have a pause before the screen appears to set the environmental noise - that way we wouldn't be tempted to start tuning!

Yes. And that would cause an empty screen if you play a note when the app is resetting auto levels.
For now either a second of silence or tapping the mic icon off and on followed by a second of silence will reset the levels.

I will try to implement your suggestion about having a pause. Thank you.

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