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Originally Posted by Taushi
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
« Not a hybrid, but the best non-hybrid action on the market in my opinion. » My experience with the Casio action is that they are fairly decent, just like the CLP675 or LX17, but I haven’t the Wow effect of the N1X. Then I am quite puzzled when some piano virtual shops put Casio GP models on the same category than the N1X and NV10S. There is something which doesn’t fit my feelings.

True, the hybrids, like the N1X, are significantly better. However, among the non-hybrids, I think the GP-series has the best non-hybrid action on the market, at least in terms of design.

I concur with both of you on the hybrids and the GP versus *all other actions*. Yesterday was my third lengthy store visit in about a month aiming to really get the picture of the available digital actions, in order to see which one would be an improvement for me that i'd be confident investing in.

Best feeling digital hybrid action: Kawai NV10S, but out of my budget.

Acceptable feeling non-hybrid action: after testing all the usuals (really, all Yamahas, all Kawais, and enough Rolands to know their actions too), only ONE would remain feasible: the Casio/Bechstein GP action. Still, currently out of my budget.

I am still pondering the VPC1 as a last resort, although so far I am not super convinced of it either.

Wow, this has been some educational and sobering experience.

Cheers and happy playing,

HZ

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From our experience, a Hybrid is a significant improvement from a digital piano in terms of realism compared to an acoustic, but still falls some way short of bridging the gap between digital/acoustic.

The main obstacle is the sound, still.

However I would state that the acoustic action in a hybrid is very much audible and does go some way in contributing to the overall sound. It adds an extra dimension. But you can still hear and recognise that the underlying sample is digital.

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Originally Posted by DeckardWill
The main obstacle is the sound, still.

I have no issue with digital piano sounds. They sound real enough to me. I decided to just play something very roughly for a sound recording (using a portable audio recorder) this evening ----- just to determine whether a neighbour would be able to tell if it comes from an analog ('acoustic'), or hybrid, or digital. I don't reckon they would be able to tell the difference. LINK

I just kept this one short. I even have some very nice backing ...... from real Australian crickets. This will be nice to listen out for --- for those that aren't in Australia heheh. (and excuse the 'click sounds'. I got short finger nails, but needs a little clip heheh).

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Originally Posted by DeckardWill
From our experience, a Hybrid is a significant improvement from a digital piano in terms of realism compared to an acoustic, but still falls some way short of bridging the gap between digital/acoustic.

The main obstacle is the sound, still.

However I would state that the acoustic action in a hybrid is very much audible and does go some way in contributing to the overall sound. It adds an extra dimension. But you can still hear and recognise that the underlying sample is digital.

These are practice work horses. Maybe you won't hear one played at Carnegie Hall but a tuned piano with great action might be the ticket to getting there. Before I bought N2, I had a 1990 Steinway K. I figured since I couldn't fit a grand, I would get something with a great sound, but the action never motivated me to practice, unlike my hybrid.


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I'm a bit different. You can give me pretty much any workable action .... and I'll just play it anyway ..... as in play/practise whatever works with it.

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Originally Posted by 36251
Before I bought N2, I had a 1990 Steinway K. I figured since I couldn't fit a grand, I would get something with a great sound, but the action never motivated me to practice, unlike my hybrid.

Originally Posted by SouthPark
I'm a bit different. You can give me pretty much any workable action .... and I'll just play it anyway ..... as in play/practise whatever works with it.

I'm in the same boat as 36251. The feel of the action is paramount to me. I *think* most pianists, especially those who grow up with acoustics, are more in SouthPark's boat.

Here's the rub:

Because the feel of the action was so important to me, I found that I ended up being extremely particular about what kind of acoustic piano was really a sizable upgrade from the NV-10...because the action is IMHO really up there in terms of quality.

But if you're moved by the *sound* of the music in a piano, in a lot of cases even an old spinet would be a colossal upgrade from even the best hybrid.


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Yikes - didn't mean to open a can of worms. Oh well. Nevertheless, I agree with many of the points made.

This actually reminds me of the "hybrid" in hybrid cars. My first hybrid car was a Honda Insight (gen 1). Amazing efficiency at 70 MPG, but it was less of a hybrid than the Toyota Prius which could propel the car on battery power alone. Both were laughed at by the EV nerds because these early "hybrids" still depended 100% on gasoline for their fuel source. One of the manufactures even had the gall to market their hybrid as "The electric car you never have to plug in!" Well, you couldn't plug it in even if you wanted to. So, were they really hybrids?

Then came models like the Chevy Volt, arguably much more of a hybrid than either of the above attempts, as you could actually plug it in like a real EV.

Perhaps the hybrid piano technologies could similarly align along a spectrum from mild to complete.

Interesting thread!


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Originally Posted by Gombessa
I'm in the same boat as 36251. The feel of the action is paramount to me. I *think* most pianists, especially those who grow up with acoustics, are more in SouthPark's boat.

Totally understanding of pianists that prefer a particular key mechanism behaviour. You both like piano as much as I do here. We're all in the same pool or sea when it comes to generating nice music and enjoying our piano playing!!

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Originally Posted by SouthPark
Originally Posted by DeckardWill
The main obstacle is the sound, still.

I have no issue with digital piano sounds. They sound real enough to me. I decided to just play something very roughly for a sound recording (using a portable audio recorder) this evening ----- just to determine whether a neighbour would be able to tell if it comes from an analog ('acoustic'), or hybrid, or digital. I don't reckon they would be able to tell the difference. LINK

I just kept this one short. I even have some very nice backing ...... from real Australian crickets. This will be nice to listen out for --- for those that aren't in Australia heheh. (and excuse the 'click sounds'. I got short finger nails, but needs a little clip heheh).

Others feel differently. I, for one, have a huge issue with digital piano sounds. I can tell when I’m hearing a digital, and find even the most expensive digitals to have inferior sound when it comes to properly emulating the sound of an acoustic piano. If the goal is for it sound like a “good digital piano”, many of them are acceptable. If the goal is to have the sound be as close to an acoustic as possible, none are sufficient.

A “neighbor” might not be able to tell the difference between an acoustic or digital, but a pianist who regularly plays an acoustic will be able to discern it, as would anyone who regularly listens to music played on acoustics.

While I think the samples in digitals may be sufficient for certain types of music, especially more modern “Solo Piano”-genre/style compositions, there are other genres where the digital will not be sufficient: in classical, for instance, the sound from a digital will be exposed almost immediately for lacking all the richness, tones, complexity, variety, depth, & interplays of resonance that an acoustic has & that the writing of the genre makes use of.

It largely depends on what you’re looking for. If you just want a good digital piano with a presentable “piano sound”, that’s one thing. If you want a digital piano that authentically emulates an acoustic, that’s another.

I’d say the same argument can be made for action.

If you goal is to use the digital piano as it’s own instrument, for you own personal enjoyment or if you travel with it, then any action will do.

If your digital piano is a piano replacement because you can’t afford a grand of equal quality in action, or because you can’t own a grand in your living space due to neighbors or sound restrictions, than you’re going to want an action that most accurately emulates the action of a fine acoustic. Especially if you perform on acoustics regularly or want a smooth transition to acoustic instruments.

Some people consider the digital piano to be it’s own instrument; a synth-like thing with a faux piano sound as part of it’s offerings. And for them, that may suffice. If your goal is an authentic piano experience, you may be more picky.

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Originally Posted by HZPiano
Originally Posted by Taushi
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
« Not a hybrid, but the best non-hybrid action on the market in my opinion. » My experience with the Casio action is that they are fairly decent, just like the CLP675 or LX17, but I haven’t the Wow effect of the N1X. Then I am quite puzzled when some piano virtual shops put Casio GP models on the same category than the N1X and NV10S. There is something which doesn’t fit my feelings.

True, the hybrids, like the N1X, are significantly better. However, among the non-hybrids, I think the GP-series has the best non-hybrid action on the market, at least in terms of design.

I concur with both of you on the hybrids and the GP versus *all other actions*. Yesterday was my third lengthy store visit in about a month aiming to really get the picture of the available digital actions, in order to see which one would be an improvement for me that i'd be confident investing in.

Best feeling digital hybrid action: Kawai NV10S, but out of my budget.

Acceptable feeling non-hybrid action: after testing all the usuals (really, all Yamahas, all Kawais, and enough Rolands to know their actions too), only ONE would remain feasible: the Casio/Bechstein GP action. Still, currently out of my budget.

I am still pondering the VPC1 as a last resort, although so far I am not super convinced of it either.

Wow, this has been some educational and sobering experience.

Cheers and happy playing,

HZ

I wish there was a store near me with Novus 10s in stock. Even in a major city, it is still harder to find Kawai’s than any other brand.

I’d like to try the NV10s because I’ve heard such good things about it, but unfortunately, all I can find is the NV5.

I’m thinking of upgrading my CLP-785 to a hybrid, and while I’m looking at an N1X, I’m still having the fear of missing out since I’m unable to really do a true comparison between the N1X and the Novus 10S, especially with all the great things I’m hearing about the latter.

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Originally Posted by Taushi
Others feel differently. I, for one, have a huge issue with digital piano sounds. I can tell when I’m hearing a digital, and find even the most expensive digitals to have inferior sound when it comes to properly emulating the sound of an acoustic piano.

A “neighbor” might not be able to tell the difference between an acoustic or digital, but a pianist who regularly plays an acoustic will be able to discern it, as would anyone who regularly listens to music.

I seriously doubt it taushi. As in I seriously doubt that you could tell the difference between an acoustic and a suitably set up digital piano with suitable sound system.

It's my word against yours. But that's ok. Our views are simply different. This also applies to action. I absolutely don't reckon there is a need to have acoustic action for the control and comfort we need for lots of styles of piano playing. I also reckon that my ears and hearing are very likely as good as yours mate. I don't know music making/audio background, and you don't know mine. But we certainly must not underestimate the audio experience of others ... if you know what I mean.

Also ..... a working piano of any sort generates sounds. And the audio we hear will depend not only on the piano features .... but also on the surroundings, which also includes your own hearing system. Filtering and acoustic effects are considered obviously.

But ..... regardless of what I mentioned above. It's fine if you reckon you have particular requirements for your piano needs. But also got to understand that I'm absolutely happy with my digital piano sound and key mechanism behaviour. I actually like to play any kind of piano ..... just like many others. And we know that in this world ..... there are all sorts.

And forgot to add. The crickets plus piano recorded last night was brought to everyone by yamaha p-515. And I genuinely love the key mechanism behaviour of it.

If my digital pianos break down beyond repair in the future, then my next digital pianos are also going to be 'slab' type. That's pretty much all I need for piano music satisfaction.

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Originally Posted by Taushi
Others feel differently. I, for one, have a huge issue with digital piano sounds. I can tell when I’m hearing a digital, and find even the most expensive digitals to have inferior sound when it comes to properly emulating the sound of an acoustic piano. If the goal is for it sound like a “good digital piano”, many of them are acceptable. If the goal is to have the sound be as close to an acoustic as possible, none are sufficient.

A “neighbor” might not be able to tell the difference between an acoustic or digital, but a pianist who regularly plays an acoustic will be able to discern it, as would anyone who regularly listens to music played on acoustics.

While I think the samples in digitals may be sufficient for certain types of music, especially more modern “Solo Piano”-genre/style compositions, there are other genres where the digital will not be sufficient: in classical, for instance, the sound from a digital will be exposed almost immediately for lacking all the richness, tones, complexity, variety, depth, & interplays of resonance that an acoustic has & that the writing of the genre makes use of.

It largely depends on what you’re looking for. If you just want a good digital piano with a presentable “piano sound”, that’s one thing. If you want a digital piano that authentically emulates an acoustic, that’s another.

I’d say the same argument can be made for action.

If you goal is to use the digital piano as it’s own instrument, for you own personal enjoyment or if you travel with it, then any action will do.

If your digital piano is a piano replacement because you can’t afford a grand of equal quality in action, or because you can’t own a grand in your living space due to neighbors or sound restrictions, than you’re going to want an action that most accurately emulates the action of a fine acoustic. Especially if you perform on acoustics regularly or want a smooth transition to acoustic instruments.

Some people consider the digital piano to be it’s own instrument; a synth-like thing with a faux piano sound as part of it’s offerings. And for them, that may suffice. If your goal is an authentic piano experience, you may be more picky.

Agree on this entirely.

It does like everything else though depend on the individual, their requirements and circumstances.

For us, our kid is pretty serious about piano on an academic level, and has a top teacher who fundamentally believes that learning on anything other than an acoustic is a distinct disadvantage.

We have a hybrid through necessity (lack of space in our house for an acoustic), not through specifically preferring a hybrid or a digital. It's the best we can do in our circumstances.

That said, all the benefits of a digital - recording, different samples, bluetooth etc. etc. are great to have.

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Serious doesn't require one to need an acoustic piano 100% of the time for home .... especially when lots of serious piano players even practise and play on digitals ..... not hybrids. Although some use hybrids too obviously.

Everybody knows that pianists will often play somebody else's piano .... acoustic/digital or whatever .... at other venues they might happen to go to. And not everybody's acoustic piano or digital has the same 'action'. Adaptability and flexibility is what it is about. Do what one can with what there is for that situation. Although .... if one isn't able to adapt ... then consider 'right tool' for their purpose.

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Originally Posted by SouthPark
I don't know your music making/audio background, and you don't know mine. But we certainly must not underestimate the audio experience of others ... if you know what I mean.

Typo correction from link

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Originally Posted by SouthPark
I seriously doubt it taushi. As in I seriously doubt that you could tell the difference between an acoustic and a suitably set up digital piano with suitable sound system.

It's my word against yours. But that's ok. Our views are simply different. This also applies to action. I absolutely don't reckon there is a need to have acoustic action for the control and comfort we need for lots of styles of piano playing. I also reckon that my ears and hearing are very likely as good as yours mate. I don't know music making/audio background, and you don't know mine. But we certainly must not underestimate the audio experience of others ... if you know what I mean.

Also ..... a working piano of any sort generates sounds. And the audio we hear will depend not only on the piano features .... but also on the surroundings, which also includes your own hearing system. Filtering and acoustic effects are considered obviously.

But ..... regardless of what I mentioned above. It's fine if you reckon you have particular requirements for your piano needs. But also got to understand that I'm absolutely happy with my digital piano sound and key mechanism behaviour. I actually like to play any kind of piano ..... just like many others. And we know that in this world ..... there are all sorts.

And forgot to add. The crickets plus piano recorded last night was brought to everyone by yamaha p-515. And I genuinely love the key mechanism behaviour of it.

If my digital pianos break down beyond repair in the future, then my next digital pianos are also going to be 'slab' type. That's pretty much all I need for piano music satisfaction.

Don’t doubt it: I can tell the difference. I have a Yamaha CLP-785, a hi-fi Samsung 5.1 channel sound system, and Sennheiser 660S headphones. Whether through the sound system or the headphones, I can still instantly tell the difference between the sounds on my digital piano, the sounds from a recording/video of any digital piano, and the sound from an acoustic or a recording of an acoustic. It’s the reason why, after buying all that, I then parted with even more money to get the VSL Synchron Piano software and a laptop to run it, though I would much rather have kept that money in my pocket. And it’s the reason I try to practice on an actual acoustic at least once a week to ensure that what I’m doing on my digital will translate to an acoustic. And I’m not the only one as many people on the board say the same thing & have taken the same steps in their pursuit of authenticity.

I completely agree that our views are different and that our uses are different. And that was my point: that it’s important to accept & allow other people’s perspectives.

If *you* don’t need an authentic action to perform at your best, that’s fine. But there are others who do need an acoustic action for control and comfort in playing their styles of music. I am one of them, and I am not alone.

And while a working piano generates sounds, and you’re fine with that sound, for me, my goal is for the sound to be as authentically close to an acoustic as possible, and I have found that even the best hybrids/digitals can’t accomplish that, when most feature four to seven velocity layers, clipped/looped samples, limited quality, basic recording methods, and lack the near infinite level of dynamic gradations, harmonic interplays, resonance interplays, and much more.

That said, I’m not denying your experience or the fact that you’re happy with what you have and that it works for you. I’m simply saying that minimizing the experience of those for whom that does not suffice is problematic for the very reasons we’re discussing. As you said, that’s all *you* need for piano music satisfaction, but that alone may not suffice for others.

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Originally Posted by Taushi
That said, I’m not denying your experience or the fact that you’re happy with what you have and that it works for you. I’m simply saying that minimizing the experience of those for whom that does not suffice is problematic for the very reasons we’re discussing. As you said, that’s all *you* need for piano music satisfaction, but that alone may not suffice for others.

Nobody is going to have their experience minimised out there in their musical journey. A lot of people will also see and understand the fallacy that an acoustic piano is the 'ultimate' in piano experience for piano sound and 'keyboard' playing experience. We may well have played acoustic pianos and digital pianos as much as each other. And I know from my experience that various modern digital pianos ..... including the ones I'm using .... are as good as any acoustic piano out there. There is no need at all to work towards acoustic action. The reason is because the 'best' acoustic actions in my opinion isn't the 'best action'. And then there are also aspects such as sounds changing or drifting over time acoustics due to the mechanical system changing ... hammers, overtone/voicing issues etc.

So in your last line ... regarding 'not suffice' ... you probably realise that it is a case of acoustic piano features aren't matching the quality of digital or hybrids in terms of sound quality, input key mechanisms etc. Do rather than digitals needing to match or imitate 'acoustics' ...... I reckon it's more like a need for acoustics to match or keep up with digitals these days - in terms of both sound and key mechanism performance.

But - once again - as mentioned previously in other threads --- we both know that music is enjoyed by people that have digitals and/or acoustic pianos. Any instrument - that is enjoyed by somebody (even just one person) is a win already. Somebody that reckons a particular sort is the 'ultimate' ------ is actually misguided. That's for those that reckon a particular sort of instrument (eg. an 'acoustic) is the 'ultimate'.

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Originally Posted by SouthPark
Do rather than digitals needing to match or imitate 'acoustics' ...... I reckon it's more like a need for acoustics to match or keep up with digitals these days - in terms of both sound and key mechanism performance.

Typo from cell/mobile phone. The 'do' should be omitted. Excuse any other spotted typos.

Originally Posted by SouthPark
But - once again - as mentioned previously in other threads --- we both know that music is enjoyed by people that have digitals and/or acoustic pianos. Any instrument - that is enjoyed by somebody (even just one person) is a win already. Somebody that reckons a particular sort is the 'ultimate' ------ is actually misguided. That's for those that reckon a particular sort of instrument (eg. an 'acoustic) is the 'ultimate'.

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Originally Posted by SouthPark
Originally Posted by Taushi
That said, I’m not denying your experience or the fact that you’re happy with what you have and that it works for you. I’m simply saying that minimizing the experience of those for whom that does not suffice is problematic for the very reasons we’re discussing. As you said, that’s all *you* need for piano music satisfaction, but that alone may not suffice for others.

Nobody is going to have their experience minimised out there in their musical journey. A lot of people will also see and understand the fallacy that an acoustic piano is the 'ultimate' in piano experience for piano sound and 'keyboard' playing experience. We may well have played acoustic pianos and digital pianos as much as each other. And I know from my experience that various modern digital pianos ..... including the ones I'm using .... are as good as any acoustic piano out there. There is no need at all to work towards acoustic action. The reason is because the 'best' acoustic actions in my opinion isn't the 'best action'. And then there are also aspects such as sounds changing or drifting over time acoustics due to the mechanical system changing ... hammers, overtone/voicing issues etc.

So in your last line ... regarding 'not suffice' ... you probably realise that it is a case of acoustic piano features aren't matching the quality of digital or hybrids in terms of sound quality, input key mechanisms etc. Do rather than digitals needing to match or imitate 'acoustics' ...... I reckon it's more like a need for acoustics to match or keep up with digitals these days - in terms of both sound and key mechanism performance.

But - once again - as mentioned previously in other threads --- we both know that music is enjoyed by people that have digitals and/or acoustic pianos. Any instrument - that is enjoyed by somebody (even just one person) is a win already. Somebody that reckons a particular sort is the 'ultimate' ------ is actually misguided. That's for those that reckon a particular sort of instrument (eg. an 'acoustic) is the 'ultimate'.

Well, it can be a bit of a minimization if, when a person makes a thread asking how close a hybrid is to an acoustic, because for their purposes the acoustic is preferred, you suggest to them that they can’t tell the difference anyway; or when people say the sound and action of digitals isn’t up to par to an acoustic for their purposes, you repeatedly put your experience as the standard, even using blanket statements like “we all.” Perhaps that’s just my interpretation.

That said, it’s probably best we agree to disagree. If you think digital pianos sound & play better than acoustics, or that acoustic pianos need to “match” or “keep up” with digital pianos instead, then I don’t think there’s anything more to discuss. Clearly, we disagree on a very fundamental level, and there’s that.

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Originally Posted by SouthPark
Nobody is going to have their experience minimised out there in their musical journey. A lot of people will also see and understand the fallacy that an acoustic piano is the 'ultimate' in piano experience for piano sound and 'keyboard' playing experience. .

Sorry but as much as I respect that you are entitled to your opinion, some of what you are saying is veering into misleading.

* I can easily, easily distinguish between a digital/hybrid and an acoustic in terms of sound. We own a PREMIUM hybrid in the NV5S and while it sounds great, it doesn't sound just like an acoustic.

* There are technical limitations even with a hybrid action, relating to sensors and how they work in place of strings. This can make particularly difficult styles more of a challenge or even impossible (read this forum)

* Our experienced teachers from the top tier (including our current, and our previous one) all state that while it is perfectly possible to learn on a digital or hybrid instrument, it is not as ideal as learning on a good acoustic. My uncle is a concert pianist and owns both digital and acoustic - he has no problem transitioning between the two, but he does agree that LEARNING on a digital isn't so ideal.

What Taushi is also saying is that while digital instruments are great, and getting better with each generation, they aren't yet at a level where you could truthfully say they are interchangeable with acoustic pianos, or where you could say it doesn't matter at all if you learn on one or another. For the timebeing that simply is not true.

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Taushi - that's no problem. I totally respect what you like, and what you're happy with. We're all musicians and like music. And we're all quite experienced - not just playing various instruments (acoustic and digital) - but also really like music and audio etc. Each person has their preferences and opinions. I respect that.

Also Will ---- same as above. I have concert pianist friends too - and they're fine with playing pretty much anything. But sure - for a particular application or requirement for particular individuals - they can and will certainly choose the instrument that meets their needs/requirements/criteria/expectations.

In another thread, I was asking somebody if they heard of Lara6683. For lots of musical styles - the sound and performance of say ----- yamaha P-255 appears to be more than adequate.

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