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Originally Posted by KawaFanboi
ferrari vs wreck is not a good analogy, it's heavily colorized by personal bias. between weighted and unweighted is like a car vs a truck. they do different things and drive differently.

yeah fair point. tbf, i did say something like 'in terms of the enjoyment i get'. i use both for different purposes

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KawaFanboi wrote:
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the watt doesn't tell you a whole lot without the sensitivity rating of the driver. it's not a very good metric for comparison.

ferrari vs wreck is not a good analogy, it's heavily colorized by personal bias. between weighted and unweighted is like a car vs a truck. they do different things and drive differently.

But wattage is the de facto standard of published specs comparison at least among all the DP makers. As you say, and I agree, "the watt tell you a whole lot", but it tells us something. It's certainly not meaningless. I think the DGX670 6wx2 versus the P-515 15w +5wx2 says something, just far, far from the whole story. And not just amp/speaker specs play in, but placement in the DP unit. For example, I've come across several criticisms, some stinging, of the speaker placement for Roland's FP-30X, which face downwards. Claims that this muddies the bottom or clouds general sonic clarity or too indirect for the player seem to be tossed at it. I don't believe this downward facing speaker arrangement is likewise on the 60X or the 90X. Again, in-person auditions would be the only way to judge for oneself.

The Ferrari/wreck analogy had been applied to his personal preference, which is "colorized" subjective. Yes, and I took the bias for what it is. His preference can't be wrong; just is. Still wholly legit keeping that in mind. You've switched the original context to an objective one which also makes perfect sense, the car/truck, different tools for different applications. I think it's good you offer this qualification, it needs to be said. But this is no different than the two analogies, themselves, "they do different things", one subjective (legit) and one objective (legit).

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Originally Posted by bob@pei
KawaFanboi wrote:
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the watt doesn't tell you a whole lot without the sensitivity rating of the driver. it's not a very good metric for comparison.

ferrari vs wreck is not a good analogy, it's heavily colorized by personal bias. between weighted and unweighted is like a car vs a truck. they do different things and drive differently.

But wattage is the de facto standard of published specs comparison at least among all the DP makers. As you say, and I agree, "the watt doesn’t tell you a whole lot", but it tells us something. It's certainly not meaningless.

To some extent, the sentiment “ singing to the choir” is holding sway here.

It is likely that many among the PW DP enthusiast’s choir here realize - in spades - that sound system Watts by themselves is old-news-been-there-done-that woefully lacking in adequately informing a given DP enthusiast…… but, that is what DP S&M departments across most brands routinely serve up, effectively arming enthusiasts with the Watt “knife” for their use in the fidelity “gunfight/battle” that often devolves into the veritable Who’s on first?, I Don’t Know, third base, Watts on second ooooooEEEEEEOOOooooo …… IMHO! 🙂


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With a pair of good studio monitors available, why worrry about the sound quality of the built-in speakers on a slab piano?

If sound quality matters to you, you'll either be using headphones, or the $800 monitors.


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With a pair of good studio monitors available, why worrry about the sound quality of the built-in speakers on a slab piano?

If sound quality matters to you, you'll either be using headphones, or the $800 monitors.

A fair question given what I've said so far. Couple of reasons for not going that route. One is portability; I don't fancy the thought of hauling clunky speakers around the house, upstairs, downstair, patio. The other is that keeping my midi controller keyboard I won't lose a thing in audio quality with my controller/computer/monitor setup. And though I did say quite a few posts ago that because I've got a good audio setup now, the sound of the DP I get won't be a reigning priority. I can live with the compromises. I'm not fussy on headphones especially when in my house situation I don't need to be quiet. Getting the DP is mainly about weighted 88s, and having a standalone instrument for working on improving piano skills.

But for all that, I still want to maximize the audio value I get for the dollar spent. I can understand how my recent posts would give the impression that this audio element of the DP decision is a huge deal. It isn't, but it is one element nevertheless. And an interesting one.

I suppose another more compact VST setup with the new DP along with a small pair external speakers. Probably not. I dunno, I could be whistlin' Dixie here, because I read lots and lots of posts where pianists with tons more experience than I have are perfectly happy with the sound of their DP's internal speakers.

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Bob@pei,

In trying to catch up to this thread, I'm having a hard time nailing down what your priorities are.

Being a DP forum, a lot of folks here are likely to skew towards keyboards that focus more on replicating an acoustic piano. 88 keys, hammer-weighted, graded, realistic sample/model set, resonances, pedal support, decent speakers that approximate the sound, feel, volume of a real piano. And some of us will probably prioritize those over portability, and non-piano functions. And digital pianos that focus on being a piano will be really emphasize the piano component, and make those easy to access and plug and play, even if they support more advanced features.

Is portability important? Will you be lugging it regularly up and down stairs? Are you going to be focused on arranging, composing, ensembles, creating custom pieces/exercises for theory? You can get all of that in an electronic keyboard or digital piano, but you'll likely be compromising aspects of the piano experience to get it, and you'll be paying a large portion of the cost for those features rather than the piano ones.

So it's kind of up to you; there are no wrong answers. What's critical must-have to your use case? I would NEVER buy a Casio PX-S1000 if I was looking for the best piano experience in a digital, but if I was going to move it every single day between rooms, that might be my runaway #1 choice.


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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Bob@pei,

In trying to catch up to this thread, I'm having a hard time nailing down what your priorities are.

Being a DP forum, a lot of folks here are likely to skew towards keyboards that focus more on replicating an acoustic piano. 88 keys, hammer-weighted, graded, realistic sample/model set, resonances, pedal support, decent speakers that approximate the sound, feel, volume of a real piano. And some of us will probably prioritize those over portability, and non-piano functions. And digital pianos that focus on being a piano will be really emphasize the piano component, and make those easy to access and plug and play, even if they support more advanced features.

Is portability important? Will you be lugging it regularly up and down stairs? Are you going to be focused on arranging, composing, ensembles, creating custom pieces/exercises for theory? You can get all of that in an electronic keyboard or digital piano, but you'll likely be compromising aspects of the piano experience to get it, and you'll be paying a large portion of the cost for those features rather than the piano ones.

So it's kind of up to you; there are no wrong answers. What's critical must-have to your use case? I would NEVER buy a Casio PX-S1000 if I was looking for the best piano experience in a digital, but if I was going to move it every single day between rooms, that might be my runaway #1 choice.

Some good points, Gombessa.

Speaking strictly from my own perspective, and since I already have more than one nice acoustic piano, I prefer the slab/stage digital piano that is easily versatile and transportable.

The reason being is that, chances are, I'll rarely, if ever (although I have in the past), transport the digital for whatever reason. However, if that opportunity were to come along, to play at a gig or other event, I'd want exactly what I have, which is a digital stage piano, easily transportable, can be connected to an amp or PA system, and actually sounds good and plays well, with the option of some nice rhythm and other accompaniments if needed or wanted.

As mentioned, you do bring up some good points...

Wishing the OP, Bob@pei, all the best in their decision!

Rick


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Gombessa wrote:
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In trying to catch up to this thread, I'm having a hard time nailing down what your priorities are.

Yeah, for sure, hard to nail down because I'm in the exploratory phase, deliberating different options deliberately and so there's been quite a bit topic drift in this thread. Some folks will understandably find this annoying. But the themes expressed in the original post still hold. Essentially, I'm wondering if an arranger type of digital piano would be a plus or a minus in terms pianistic technique development and theory study. That relates to the "pedagog" in the title of this thread, that is, the educational aspect. But I've also wondered if the compromises necessary to incorporate all the arranger's bells and whistes, somehow goes counter to the more pure piano characteristics.

And you've offered an interesting comment on that last point.

Gombessa wrote:
Quote
Being a DP forum, a lot of folks here are likely to skew towards keyboards that focus more on replicating an acoustic piano. 88 keys, hammer-weighted, graded, realistic sample/model set, resonances, pedal support, decent speakers that approximate the sound, feel, volume of a real piano. And some of us will probably prioritize those over portability, and non-piano functions. And digital pianos that focus on being a piano will be really emphasize the piano component, and make those easy to access and plug and play, even if they support more advanced features.

You know what, I hadn't really taken this fundamental but key point about the forum's natural "skew" and given it a proper place. Obvious, but easy to let slip.

Quote
Is portability important? Will you be lugging it regularly up and down stairs? Are you going to be focused on arranging, composing, ensembles, creating custom pieces/exercises for theory? You can get all of that in an electronic keyboard or digital piano, but you'll likely be compromising aspects of the piano experience to get it, and you'll be paying a large portion of the cost for those features rather than the piano ones.

Well, you've sorta busted me here! Truth is once acquired I won't be moving it much, but I'd like to hang onto that option and I have no interest in another piece of fixed-in-place furniture. The important takeaway I'm getting from your message here is awareness of the inevitable compromises of what you've called "the piano experience". If I'm not mistaken you are the first contributor to assert that "a large portion of the cost [go] for those [arranger] features rather than piano ones". I'm not qualified yet to make an opinion on this, but by analogy with many other types of purchases, I'd agree that as the feature list lengthens, the main function of the tool/vehicle/appliance/ tends to slip in quality. First thing that comes to mind is the "adjustable wrench". The adjustment feature itself is the very mechanism that makes that tool less effective than a one-size socket or open-ended wrench. But maybe this analogy is flawed when it comes to DP and this is where I was seeking some expert insight.

To your other point, which by the way, is well put:
Quote
Are you going to be focused on arranging, composing, ensembles, creating custom pieces/exercises for theory? You can get all of that in an electronic keyboard or digital piano,

The answer is yes, yes, yes...composing, arranging, improv, custom etudes, technical drills, theory exercises. This is probably what caught my attention about the arranger type DPs in the first place. Maybe, just maybe, some of the drier, more militant drills could be made a little more fun with DP with accompaniment features .And I'm no purist, so I don't mind at all compromising some of the pure pianistic experience. But neither do I want to sacrifice it entirely.

Gombessa wrote:
Quote
So it's kind of up to you; there are no wrong answers. What's critical must-have to your use case? I would NEVER buy a Casio PX-S1000 if I was looking for the best piano experience in a digital, but if I was going to move it every single day between rooms, that might be my runaway #1 choice.

Fair comments, to be sure. I'd suggest that when there are no wrong answers there can be no such thing as a critical path. Right now, as aggravating as it might be to some folks, the path is winding, meandering, exploratory, where indeed there is no wrong direction. I follow the logic of your resistance to the thought of Casio PX-S1000 for piano experience and it does resonate. And I think you have called me out insofar as truth be told I won't be skipping from room to room, upstairs and down, hither and yon! I can certainly live with a 50-pounder that takes up more space than that featherweight Casio.

Thanks for weighing in, @Gombessa. Part of my mission, as unorthodox as it may seem, has been to subject my own assumptions to a critical cross-examination. Hard questions from contributors have given me much food for thought as I formulate my own opinions. But I remain for the time being in the formulation/exploration phase, which is exactly why my messages here aren't nailed to any fixed focus.

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I certainly did not mean for my response to sound annoyed or exasperated at your situation (it was neither)! Just trying to see if there was a way to provide a more focused, helpful response. My apologies if it did come off that way. You certainly should be exploring options to set down the ultimate path and asking for questions/feedback at each and any stage is entirely appropriate!

Best of luck with the piano hunt!


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Gombessa wrote:

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I certainly did not mean for my response to sound annoyed or exasperated at your situation (it was neither)! Just trying to see if there was a way to provide a more focused, helpful response. My apologies if it did come off that way. You certainly should be exploring options to set down the ultimate path and asking for questions/feedback at each and any stage is entirely appropriate!

Best of luck with the piano hunt!

Oh, no worries at all @Gombessa. Your response did not come across with any hint of a tone of annoyance or exasperation, no nothing like that at all! The fault is mine for failing to make that clear. And no one else who have contributed opinions here in this thread have expressed that kind or level of irritation. But I do invite tough questions and frank criticism of any of the assumptions I'm toting around. That's my way of learning.

What you were trying to do worked!


One thing I was wondering about, though, and I don't want to stir up any controversy, but you pointed out that the added features and functions of the arranger translates into a significant cost compared to a DP model which applies its strongest focus on piano-specific attributes. I'm wondering if you'd venture an real world example you see or if what you were relying on is a perfectly understandable intuitive feel which goes something like , 'the more bells and whistles you build into anything functional, the more you risk compromising the quality/reliability/durability/elegance of the primary function."

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A friend of mine has a Casio PX-S3000 (the "arranger" DP), which I think has been replaced by the PX-S3100.

So far as I can find out, it doesn't sacrifice _anything_ that was available in the PX-S1000. I expect that the same is true in the S3100 / S1100 comparison:

. . . the "arranger" version is enhanced, not ccompromised.

The "arranger" version is somewhat more expensive -- that pays for its extra features ("arranger" features, more connectivity). Note that the "arranger" features include multi-track MIDI recording, several digital effects, and other goodies.

I suspect the same thing would be true, if you compared the Yamaha P-125 against the latest arranger (DGX-670, I think). Check the keyboard action, check the sound generator.


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Originally Posted by bob@pei
One thing I was wondering about, though, and I don't want to stir up any controversy, but you pointed out that the added features and functions of the arranger translates into a significant cost compared to a DP model which applies its strongest focus on piano-specific attributes. I'm wondering if you'd venture an real world example you see or if what you were relying on is a perfectly understandable intuitive feel which goes something like , 'the more bells and whistles you build into anything functional, the more you risk compromising the quality/reliability/durability/elegance of the primary function."

These prices may be a bit wonky and all over the place due to COVID supply issues, but generally speaking, what I see is:

P-125: $600-700, basic budget DP. Piano focused.
DGX-670: $850, same action as the P-125, looks like an updated sound engine.
PSR-900XS Arranger: $2500, 61 keys, unweighted, lower end AWM sound engine.

P-515: $1600, 88 weighted keys, NWW action, latest CFX/Bosendorfer samples with binaural sampling. Piano focused.
CP-88: $2600, 88 weighted keys NW-GH action (no escapement), older AWM2 sound engine lacking resonances and other piano effects. Stage performance focused.

N1X $9000, real acoustic piano action, multichannel sampled sound engine. Piano focused.
CVP-809 Clavinova Ensemble: $15,000, GrandTouch (digital) action, lacks any multi-channel output.

When you get into the arranger and ensemble features (and anything more specialized than just playing piano), the price really tends to go up...

As to the point made about the Casios, I think it's fair to say that actually makes the same point. You either pay more to get the same level of piano features, or if you balance against the DP price, you'll have to look for a downmarket arranger, and likely end up with less. IMHO, not really accurate to compare something higher priced to lower priced and say there isn't any sacrifice, since cost is inherently part of the feature.

PX-S1100: $650
PX-S3100: $870


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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by bob@pei
One thing I was wondering about, though, and I don't want to stir up any controversy, but you pointed out that the added features and functions of the arranger translates into a significant cost compared to a DP model which applies its strongest focus on piano-specific attributes. I'm wondering if you'd venture an real world example you see or if what you were relying on is a perfectly understandable intuitive feel which goes something like , 'the more bells and whistles you build into anything functional, the more you risk compromising the quality/reliability/durability/elegance of the primary function."

These prices may be a bit wonky and all over the place due to COVID supply issues, but generally speaking, what I see is:

P-125: $600-700, basic budget DP. Piano focused.
DGX-670: $850, same action as the P-125, looks like an updated sound engine.
PSR-900XS Arranger: $2500, 61 keys, unweighted, lower end AWM sound engine.

P-515: $1600, 88 weighted keys, NWW action, latest CFX/Bosendorfer samples with binaural sampling. Piano focused.
CP-88: $2600, 88 weighted keys NW-GH action (no escapement), older AWM2 sound engine lacking resonances and other piano effects. Stage performance focused.

N1X $9000, real acoustic piano action, multichannel sampled sound engine. Piano focused.
CVP-809 Clavinova Ensemble: $15,000, GrandTouch (digital) action, lacks any multi-channel output.

When you get into the arranger and ensemble features (and anything more specialized than just playing piano), the price really tends to go up...

As to the point made about the Casios, I think it's fair to say that actually makes the same point. You either pay more to get the same level of piano features, or if you balance against the DP price, you'll have to look for a downmarket arranger, and likely end up with less. IMHO, not really accurate to compare something higher priced to lower priced and say there isn't any sacrifice, since cost is inherently part of the feature.

PX-S1100: $650
PX-S3100: $870

Thanks @Gombessa for expanding on your point about feature costs and piano focused DPs with this summary. And yes, with the Casio example, that price difference is solely the added arranger functions.

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In particular order following on Gombessa, CharlesCohen and jackopiano ,

i think dgx670 is mis-skewed.

It’s positioned as an under-$1000, basic piano-centric portable DP with a USB midi & audio interface, and a nice color display, packed with a nice complement of basic as well as advanced features for hundreds of sounds/rhythms/backing tracks/ & recording “arranging” with a mic input and a peculiar single 1/4 inch line output stereo jack for connection to headphones or an amp or a Y cable to monitors. I do not see it qualifying as a typical (thin with straight lines) portable slab but instead it is jumbo (thick & curvy ) slab weighing over 50 pounds.

Yes, arrangers generally are not for i-just-wanna-play-piano folks but the 670 is just as simple to use for basic piano playing of Yamaha’s top GP sampled voice - with resonances - as Roland and Kawai, but the roaming nature of the included econo foot-switch pedal might add some aggravation like Casios do.


Price wise , if you get the basic package, it belongs with the under-1000 gang - fp10, fp30x and es110. If you get the stand w/3 pedals ( which replaces the single, wondering foot-switch with a 3-pedal lyre) it is even less portable and also belongs with the over-1000 gang - fp60x and es520 - where $800 monitors are a bit more practical.

Maybe i’m alone but portability & slabbyness generally serves the needs of the traveling digital pianist, not the needs of basic, simple, no-frills piano playing at home. Either way, Kawai 110 & 520 might win the closer-to-a-real-GP action/feel, but as to which DP overall best serves the needs of a simple digital pianist? ; all the models jackopiano listed are worthy …. and may the old & still ongoing debates continue 🙂


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Thanks @drewr for further expanding on the attributes of Yamaha's DGX670. It's helpful to me because I can see myself NOT in the end-user classification you describe as "I-just-wanna-play-piano"...

Quote
Yes, arrangers generally are not for i-just-wanna-play-piano folks but the 670 is just as simple to use for basic piano playing of Yamaha’s top GP sampled voice

How you've situated pricing with/without extras vis a vis competing brand/models is also practical info.

With all the great info in this thread, I'm tilting towards a lower-end entry model because I have a hunch I'll be in the market in another year or so once I gain clarity on my working priorities. Several posters have commented on my fuzzy priorities and I confess, guilty as charged. With this absence of fine-cut demands, I reckon it's probably best to keep the ante low in the beginning. I risk making an expensive, regrettable mistake going to the top end of my budget or beyond. That self-discovery would retain Yamaha's DGX670 as you've profiled it as a low risk, reasonably low cost option.

Thanks for continuing to elaborate your perspectives on this subject. Both instructive and interesting for me.

Last edited by bob@pei; 05/13/22 11:43 PM.
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