2022 our 25th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
38 members (brennbaer, Chompoo, Boboulus, Evgeny 85, CountSmith, Carey, AJB, 11 invisible), 3,304 guests, and 279 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
Joined: Feb 2022
Posts: 372
C
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
C
Joined: Feb 2022
Posts: 372
Originally Posted by SouthPark
Originally Posted by chromaticvortex
Mine is usually grounded in precision, because I like to be conscious of what I’m playing.

This is what really amazes me - and what I appreciate. Having those particular skills or abilities that you have to create what you create - in that particular way. Still maybe one of the processes or mechanisms that hasn't been properly understood by people yet. It is very interesting and intriguing.

Exactly. Yes, thank you. We all have unique and complex creativity in us. It’s the individual factors we bring to our creative process, that others don’t have, and which are special. But none of us is born with the technique or mode to express it, and that’s where a great deal of our creative development comes in…well that’s kind of how I see it anyway (specifically regarding artistic creativity, which pushes boundaries anyway by default, but is forced to use some order and structure otherwise it isn’t given enough form to be delivered or received cohesively).

(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,722
N
4000 Post Club Member
Online Content
4000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,722
Originally Posted by SouthPark
What I mean by strange and unusual is more along the lines of seemingly no context, or random, or ..... eg. a mess.
In the improvisations of young K.J. can be heard clearly. that he worked hard on the reproduction of human speech in piano, under the influence of free jazz gurus , also Paul Bley; and the soprano saxophone became an auxiliary for this purpose. I myself have walked this path using the alto saxophone. I'm sure these Jarrett recordings didn't become popular; but it is impossible to talk about chaos - logic exists one way or another. The adult human brain does not allow to act otherwise, only through patterns (Behaviorism).
Derek Bailey raised the slogan of non-idiomatic music that I called: "Leap above the navel!"I would like to, but it doesn't work...

Joined: May 2012
Posts: 2,794
G

Platinum Supporter until July 22 2014
2000 Post Club Member
Offline

Platinum Supporter until July 22 2014
2000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 2,794
Originally Posted by Simon_b
8...
From interviews I've read with Jarrett he certainly doesn't seem to agree with the general opinion here that improvisation is, at least to some extent, based on previously developed structures and forms. However, I basically agree with the majority here. I think he is a bit deluded if he believes that everything he improvises is new and created on the spur of the moment.
...
My own view is that Keith Jarrett has a strong case; at least to be considered among the best, not only because of his solo improv concerts and Jazz playing, but also because of his study of the 'classical' repertoire (including Shostakovich, Mozart, Handel and Bach), which if you listen to many of his solo concerts he incorporates into his improvisations.
...

Yeah, if he wasn't such a brat maybe. He acts like a man-child from what I've read about him, Simon. Does he get off the hook lecturing audiences for coughing or the odd picture flash because of his extraordinary creativity?

Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 1,731
S
1000 Post Club Member
Online Content
1000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 1,731
Originally Posted by Nahum
In the improvisations of young K.J. can be heard clearly. that he worked hard on the reproduction of human speech in piano, under the influence of free jazz gurus, also Paul Bley; and the soprano saxophone became an auxiliary for this purpose. I myself have walked this path using the alto saxophone. I'm sure these Jarrett recordings didn't become popular; but it is impossible to talk about chaos - logic exists one way or another. The adult human brain does not allow to act otherwise, only through patterns (Behaviorism).
Derek Bailey raised the slogan of non-idiomatic music that I called: "Leap above the navel!"I would like to, but it doesn't work...

I think I know what you mean nahum. Pushing keys randomly ..... as as randomly as possible .. will get towards total chaos. While western type music and related music has style(s) or some structure/patterns involved. Some rules of western music applied. Experimentation can offer interesting results that could be appealing to some people, and maybe not so appealing to some others.

Saxaphone is a great instrument ..... allowing for pitchbend/intonation that keyboards can't accurately replicate. Pitch bend wheel for some sorts of alto sax tunes can be used to give a rough impression of some sorts of sax playing ... but no way to produce anything even close to real sax playing in real time.

Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 1,731
S
1000 Post Club Member
Online Content
1000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 1,731
Originally Posted by chromaticvortex
We all have unique and complex creativity in us. It’s the individual factors we bring to our creative process, that others don’t have, and which are special. But none of us is born with the technique or mode to express it, and that’s where a great deal of our creative development comes in…well that’s kind of how I see it anyway (specifically regarding artistic creativity, which pushes boundaries anyway by default, but is forced to use some order and structure otherwise it isn’t given enough form to be delivered or received cohesively).

Totally agree with you CV! That is really well put. Excellently put really.

Joined: May 2012
Posts: 608
I
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
I
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 608
Jarrett has been influenced by a lot of different music(s). Yes, back in the late 1960's thru the 70's he gave a big nod to Ornette and Bley. I just pulled up (on YouTube) his "Paris Concert" from 1988 - a 38 minute improvisation....I'd argue that early on he engages in some Bachisms - dipping his (musical) toes into some counterpoint. Later he drifts into a loose ostinato later on and seems to engage in some Bach styled harmony at times.

Listening to KJ playing G.A.S. (great American songbook) tunes, you can often hear him using voice leading....should we attribute this to Bach or Bill Evans ? Probably Bach I'd guess. Not simply copying, but using the musical logic.

I'd say a high level improvisor would be someone who has digested a lot of musical nuts and bolts - his mind's ear hears them working.

I would submit that if Jacob Collier wished to corral himself into simply being a jazz pianist, he'd blow many musicians' tops. He's busy frying other fish. I'd argue that based on certain of his works for Duke Ellington, Billy Strayhorn could have been a contender. If you listen to the album "Masterpieces by Ellington" in 1950 - reportedly arranged by Strayhorn but uncredited at the time of release - I'd say that the musical mind that created those arrangements was a candidate for greatest improvisor - but completely hypothetical. There was a mention in David Haju's bio of Strayhorn IIRC that he did some sitting in on a Bud Powell gig and held his own - probably back in the 1940's. As I recall anyway.

My personal musical sweet spot for Jarrett is indeed those 1970's Impulse recordings. I believe he took inspiration from Ornette Coleman and went deeper and more varied.

Last edited by indigo_dave; 05/04/22 01:01 PM.
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 608
I
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
I
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 608
Originally Posted by indigo_dave
My personal musical sweet spot for Jarrett is indeed those 1970's Impulse recordings. I believe he took inspiration from Ornette Coleman and went deeper and more varied.

A few examples of my absolute favorite KJ's on the Impluse recordings - some things from "Treasure Island" particularly "Fullovalluvous" (sp?) and "Angles Without Edges" .....I think these 2 are Ornette influenced, but KJ goes avant gardish (I'd say) and figures out ways to use major triads while he's at it. Just 2 examples.

I also love his "Southern Smiles" from the "Shades" album. Using basically triads and dominant 7th chords - he creates such fresh sounding music.

A few specific examples.

Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 860
Simon_b Offline OP
500 Post Club Member
OP Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 860
Hi Dave

I witnessed one KJ's tantrums up close in the early 1990s. I went to see him play a solo concert at the Royal Festival Hall in London. I was in the choir seats (behind the stage) about 15-20 feet from the Grand Piano (not amplified as I recall). A few people coughed during a very quiet section and he lost it.... But it was a great concert, which was broadcast on BBC R4 a few weeks later. I still have a recording of it. The BBC edited the tantrum out.

I bought Treasure Island not that long ago and liked it. You're right about the Paris concert, that particular recording was one that I have, where he seemed to be including 'classical' references in his improvisations. I think possibly Handel as well as Bach.

My favourite KJ recordings are the European Quartet (Beginnings & Personal Mountains) and the standards Trio. Particularly the monumental Live at the Blue Note boxed set. Though as a one-off I think The Deer Head Inn album is great. As near to KJ having fun as I've ever heard.

Contrary to one of the previous posters I think his improvisations over 'changes', rather than free, are up there with the very best.

My most recent purchase is the Gary Burton and Keith Jarrett album from about 1970, where sin of sins he plays electric Piano and there's electric guitar on it as well. Used to have a cassette recording of the album decades ago. Still as good as I remember it.

Cheers


Simon

Vox Continental 73
Casio PX-S3000
Pearl Midtown Drums
Thomann Vibraphone








Simon_b #3213891 05/04/22 07:58 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 432
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 432
SIMON B you probably already saw these but I just wanted to share. I saw Keith three times and all three were truly amazing. He did not pout or throw a tantrum and he played each time at least 2 hours and it blew my mind that three musicians could play at that level.







Simon_b #3213942 05/05/22 12:42 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,722
N
4000 Post Club Member
Online Content
4000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,722
Originally Posted by SouthPark
Saxaphone is a great instrument ..... allowing for pitchbend/intonation that keyboards can't accurately replicate. Pitch bend wheel for some sorts of alto sax tunes can be used to give a rough impression of some sorts of sax playing ... but no way to produce anything even close to real sax playing in real time.
My student heard a solo concert by K.J. in Greece ; and noted that the pianist was extracting quarter tones from the instrument. You can sometimes hear this effect on oriental or blues style recordings. One day during the period when I was working really hard on imitating Jarrett's playing by recording myself, I spontaneously got a glissandon - I have no idea how. I tried to connect two notes, combining different attacks, dynamics and timing of the second note. Replay was no longer possible; and the record is lost.
Just in Flying Part 2, Jarrett imitates the style of Ornette Coleman very well.

Simon_b #3213959 05/05/22 03:16 AM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 860
Simon_b Offline OP
500 Post Club Member
OP Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 860
Thanks dpvjazz

I'd seen the Mozart one before, but not the other two. Great stuff. I saw the Standards trio about a year after the solo concert and there were no tantrums at that one.

I was reading a 2016 interview with KJ yesterday and he explained why the Standards trio ceased playing together, which I'd always wondered about. It was because Gary Peacock was losing his hearing, and that started impacting the way the band played together. In the end they just couldn't do what they had been doing for the previous 30 years because of it.

Cheers


Simon

Vox Continental 73
Casio PX-S3000
Pearl Midtown Drums
Thomann Vibraphone








Simon_b #3213994 05/05/22 08:56 AM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,147
J
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,147
"It's 'structures' that are well ingrained from learning ------ learning from other people's music. Also - sure - it can be complemented by own 'rules' too ----- which are those particular runs or passages/structures that you developed yourself - which can be ingrained too."

Sums it up, for me.

BTW, if you're sampling from the entire history of modern (Western) music, some folks have suggested that good old J.S. Bach could improvise on any tune you cared to throw at him, and he do it contrapuntally to boot.

Speaking of Jarrett in the strictly classical realm. His Shostakovich P&F are right at the top of recorded performances. His Bach WTC, not so much. His Handel Suites, according to classical critics, are still the best interpretations ever recorded. I concur. His Handel has swing, which other interpretations completely lack. His approach to the big H. works so well that you would have to conclude that Handel SHOULD swing, that Handel MEANT his music to swing.

Simon_b #3214011 05/05/22 09:55 AM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,438
S
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,438
At the risk of continuing down the path that strayed a bit from the original topic: I attended a KJ solo concert in 1981. No tantrum, but when he arrived on stage around 8:15 and the applause died down, he scolded a few late arrivers, explaining that even though he hadn't started playing, the "musical moments" began at the published 8pm concert time.

Simon_b #3214040 05/05/22 11:08 AM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,147
J
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,147
Attended his last concert in Toronto. True to form, he stood up somewhere in the middle of the concert and repeatedly hit one note (somewhere above C5 on the piano) and said to the audience, essentially: "Do you hear that? Listen to that note. There's something wrong with that note...."

Needless to say, the piano tech was working pretty hard during the intermission to fix the "problem".

Personally, I couldn't hear it. No problem for me.

Simon_b #3214045 05/05/22 11:20 AM
Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 1,731
S
1000 Post Club Member
Online Content
1000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 1,731
True ..... he does have some interesting personality and/or behaviour that goes against the grain. But we got to hand it to him. Just based on his piano playing ability and musical skills ... he does have something special ... music-wise.

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,566
B
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,566
Originally Posted by johnlewisgrant
Speaking of Jarrett in the strictly classical realm. His Shostakovich P&F are right at the top of recorded performances. His Bach WTC, not so much.

The Bach he recorded with Makarski is some of the most beautiful Bach I have ever heard ...


beeboss #3214251 05/06/22 05:02 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,722
N
4000 Post Club Member
Online Content
4000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,722
Originally Posted by beeboss
The Bach he recorded with Makarski is some of the most beautiful Bach I have ever heard ...
This still requires discussion. I prefer Menuhin's version.


Nahum #3214257 05/06/22 05:35 AM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,566
B
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,566
Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by beeboss
The Bach he recorded with Makarski is some of the most beautiful Bach I have ever heard ...
This still requires discussion. I prefer Menuhin's version.

I don't mean to suggest that the Jarrett version is objectively much better than any other version in recorded history, only that the Jarrett/Makarski version is up there with some of the best in my opinion. You may not agree, that is fine.

I only posted my opinion because probably most people here have never heard the Jarrett/Makarski recording and are missing out on a beautiful experience.

Simon_b #3214309 05/06/22 10:57 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,722
N
4000 Post Club Member
Online Content
4000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,722
Originally Posted by beeboss
I don't mean to suggest that the Jarrett version is objectively much better than any other version in recorded history, only that the Jarrett/Makarski version is up there with some of the best in my opinion. You may not agree, that is fine.

I only posted my opinion because probably most people here have never heard the Jarrett/Makarski recording and are missing out on a beautiful experience.

In fact, the order should have been different: Makarski / Jarrett, who plays the cembalo obbligato. Yes, I have never heard this version before, and don't think that I will return to it again. What I have written applies only to the violinist. It is an anemic performance with signs of asthma, compared to Menuhin's colossal breathing, where every fraction of a second of sounding radiates music of heavenly beauty.

Simon_b #3214321 05/06/22 11:31 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,722
N
4000 Post Club Member
Online Content
4000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,722

Last edited by Nahum; 05/06/22 11:33 AM.
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
Piano Buyer - Read the Articles, Explore the website
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Learn to Burn!
by Dfrankjazz - 07/01/22 12:36 AM
Summer school in UK
by FarmGirl - 06/30/22 11:12 PM
Recommended tech in NYC?
by skern49 - 06/30/22 07:39 PM
UEFI / BIOS settings regarding CPU
by David Lai - 06/30/22 07:26 PM
When you play the real Rhodes...
by Rhodes74 - 06/30/22 06:23 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
What's Hot!!
FREE June Newsletter is Here!
--------------------
Forums RULES, Terms of Service & HELP
(updated 06/06/2022)
-------------------
Music Store Going Out of Business Sale!
---------------------
Mr. PianoWorld's Original Composition
---------------------
Sell Your Piano on our world famous Piano Forums!
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums43
Topics213,755
Posts3,204,576
Members105,685
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2022 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5