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Animisha #3207930 04/10/22 10:09 AM
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Animisha,
Yes, speed comes with practice.
How you practice, for how long, in what ways ALL matter.
A good teacher who has, or at least had, good technique can make all the difference here.
What piece are you trying to play?
Can you play any of the passages in it at speed WITHOUT getting tense?
If so, which ones?
Which ones give you the most trouble?


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bennevis #3207934 04/10/22 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by Greener
...there is still a mental component to it that seems to always get overlooked when it comes to speed

There is no mental component, except what you want to impose unnecessarily on yourself. Did I mention "over-thinking"?

There is a huge mental component and it has nothing whatsoever to do with overthinking. Such a condescending remark.
The mental component that is a big block on the road to playing fast, is remembering what to do exactly when I have to do it and not a split second too late.
When I practise the piece in small sections, I can end up playing each section really fast. So I am not struggling with a technical problem. My fingers can do it! But for my mind at each measure to know exactly what to do now, and now, and now, that is the biggest struggle.


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Seeker #3207939 04/10/22 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Seeker
Can you play any of the passages in it at speed WITHOUT getting tense?
If so, which ones?
Which ones give you the most trouble?

If I work with one passage at the time, whenever I finish with that passage I play it at speed without getting tense. But when I try to connect passages, I start making mistakes when playing fast, which I don't do when I play slowly, because when playing slowly I have enough time to remember what to do next.


Playing the piano is learning to create, playfully and deeply seriously, our own music in the world.
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Animisha #3207940 04/10/22 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Animisha
There is a huge mental component and it has nothing whatsoever to do with overthinking. Such a condescending remark.
The mental component that is a big block on the road to playing fast, is remembering what to do exactly when I have to do it and not a split second too late.
When I practise the piece in small sections, I can end up playing each section really fast. So I am not struggling with a technical problem. My fingers can do it! But for my mind at each measure to know exactly what to do now, and now, and now, that is the biggest struggle.
That is exactly what I mean by over-thinking.

Why are you repeatedly practicing a piece in such short sections that don't join up to become whole, such that you end up having to keep thinking: what's coming next? You have a section of say, part of a scale followed by part of an arpeggio, finishing with a V-I. So, you practice the bit that you keep stumbling on, then, immediately play the whole phrase at the speed you can play that bit, or bits. And you keep on repeating that until the whole phrase becomes fluent. Get the whole lot into your muscle memory - not by thinking.

A piece is only as good as its weakest link.

You wouldn't learn to swim front crawl by continually practicing turning your head without joining up what happens with your arms before and after, would you?


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
bennevis #3207956 04/10/22 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
That is exactly what I mean by over-thinking.

What to say. Denying that you need conscious memory also when playing a piece doesn't help anybody.


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Animisha #3207957 04/10/22 11:28 AM
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Slow practice to learn all the notes. Gradually move the metronome up by a few beats a minute. Beware of hands tension start to build. In the learning process you're going to repeat a section many times to get the right notes. You can only repeat so many times before your hands start feeling stressed.

Before the new year I practiced a relatively fast piece at 96 bpm. Moved it up to 104. Sill playable. Getting past 110 becomes an issue. Muscles start to tense up. And there is a spot that always drag the speed down. Have to rework some fingerings to get the technical bits to come in on time.

Have to learn to play with relaxed muscles.

LarryK #3207958 04/10/22 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by LarryK
Ah, all of the times are correlated, probably within about 15 seconds per mile. If your fastest mile time is seven minutes, you’ll never run a 3:15 marathon.

Running is running. The physics is not different. The marathon introduces fatigue so the mile times are less per mile, of course, but the times are all quite predictable.


Yes of course. But conversely if you can run 3 miles in 15mns it has no implication on your ability to run a much longer distance. And running a 10k is not the same as running 26 miles. There are specific physiological differences with long and very long distances, in particular the ability to run fast on 26 miles depends on your body ability to preserve and use the sugar stock stored in your body which improves with training. Your performance on the marathon will depends on your training level. If you only train on short distance, your speed on the marathon will not be correlated.


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Animisha #3207965 04/10/22 11:42 AM
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I did go on one online piano tutorial by Graham Finch about playing faster. ( I don't actually really understand piano group tutorials as the others I've seen people talk about music I don't play so it's very boring. I don't go to any of them but this one was good so maybe they can be helpful if they are about a generic topic)

He mentioned a few things

- playing very slowly to get no mistakes (I don't really do this one as it was not mentioned by my teacher but I do this a lot when first learning the piece)

- practice in rhythms (I knew this one)

But he mentioned doing it in more rhythms. Long-short, short-long. However he also suggested with 4 notes which is harder so works when you can do two note rhythms. There are four variations (long-short-short,short), (short-long-short-short) etc.

- chaining (good for weak links so you play four notes very quickly and then join the chains together)

I do use this for Scarlatti D minor K517. Sometimes you need a technical solution. eg My teacher showed how me how to play scales very fast with a rotation but playing fast is very hard and requires a great deal of practice and it is what I spend most of my time working on since it's much easier when you have experience to get the basics done.

It is however practice that few do as it can be boring. the above may be tools but you need to keep trying. I also do the above so I don't get bored. I found another strategy last week of just playing a difficult phrase over and over and over.

Its also probably very very true the comment you need to always practice fast music. You also need to learn to identify all the parts where you slip up. Also, even if you can do it playing a fast piece to others it's very easy to fall off so needs even more work to get secure.

As I said before, if you want more useful tips you need to put the music you are playing or a video otherwise it's probably not clear what the issue is or if there even is one


Good luck

Last edited by Moo :); 04/10/22 11:48 AM.
Animisha #3207966 04/10/22 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Animisha
Originally Posted by Seeker
Can you play any of the passages in it at speed WITHOUT getting tense?
If so, which ones?
Which ones give you the most trouble?

If I work with one passage at the time, whenever I finish with that passage I play it at speed without getting tense. But when I try to connect passages, I start making mistakes when playing fast, which I don't do when I play slowly, because when playing slowly I have enough time to remember what to do next.

Thats because you are not used to play at that speed continuously so you get overloaded by the tempo. What you need to practice is take extremely simple pieces, way simplier than what you can play and practice speed playing everyday. With time you will get used to process the music faster. And typically ”muscle memory” allows you to avoid thinking about every detail of how to play. If you dont develop that ability you can play fast because you wont have the time to think about every detail all the time in very fast pieces.


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Sidokar #3207969 04/10/22 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Sidokar
Originally Posted by Animisha
Originally Posted by Seeker
Can you play any of the passages in it at speed WITHOUT getting tense?
If so, which ones?
Which ones give you the most trouble?

If I work with one passage at the time, whenever I finish with that passage I play it at speed without getting tense. But when I try to connect passages, I start making mistakes when playing fast, which I don't do when I play slowly, because when playing slowly I have enough time to remember what to do next.

Thats because you are not used to play at that speed continuously so you get overloaded by the tempo. What you need to practice is take extremely simple pieces, way simplier than what you can play and practice speed playing everyday. With time you will get used to process the music faster. And typically ”muscle memory” allows you to avoid thinking about every detail of how to play. If you dont develop that ability you can play fast because you wont have the time to think about every detail all the time in very fast pieces.

I think it is also possible with this piece. Look at the parts where the mistakes happen and play those parts, again and again and again. Don't start at the beginning of a passage, start somewhere in the middle, just at random and keep changing from where you start.

Sidokar #3207970 04/10/22 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Sidokar
Originally Posted by LarryK
Ah, all of the times are correlated, probably within about 15 seconds per mile. If your fastest mile time is seven minutes, you’ll never run a 3:15 marathon.

Running is running. The physics is not different. The marathon introduces fatigue so the mile times are less per mile, of course, but the times are all quite predictable.


Yes of course. But conversely if you can run 3 miles in 15mns it has no implication on your ability to run a much longer distance. And running a 10k is not the same as running 26 miles. There are specific physiological differences with long and very long distances, in particular the ability to run fast on 26 miles depends on your body ability to preserve and use the sugar stock stored in your body which improves with training. Your performance on the marathon will depends on your training level. If you only train on short distance, your speed on the marathon will not be correlated.

I’m sorry, you’re wrong. A race time/pace at a shorter distance is predictive of the pace you are capable of running at a longer distance. All race times, at any distance, depend on your training.

Please go plug some of your race times into the McMillan Race Pace calculator. The results are enlightening.

Racing is just pace over distance.

I’m not saying you will run the predicted pace in a longer race, just that you have the fitness to do it. Conversely, you do not have the fitness to run thirty seconds or one minute per mile faster than the predicted pace.

The best marathon is the one you train for and don’t run. That way, you get all of the benefits of the training without the tremendous physical cost of running 26.2 miles at race pace.

Last edited by LarryK; 04/10/22 11:58 AM.
Animisha #3207971 04/10/22 12:00 PM
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I have a feeling that one important issue here is whether you are playing from memory, or playing from the score. I learn initially by playing from the score, at a glacially slow pace, and there is no chance of playing it fast until I have memorized it. When it has been adequately memorized, so that I can play it without conscious awareness of where to put my fingers, then I may increase speed.

Ultimately, I believe the goal is the state Qazsedcft described in his other post:

Total Freedom

where the movements seem effortless.

Whether this applies to everyone, or just "memorizers", or just me, I don't know, but playing fast with conscious awareness of what is being played, and playing fast without this conscious awareness, are two distinct things, and the body movements are not the same in those two cases.


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bennevis #3207974 04/10/22 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
... You have a section of say, part of a scale followed by part of an arpeggio, finishing with a V-I...

If this is an example of over thinking it, than yes I see and agree with you. You don't want or need to be carrying this level of detail when trying to play at speed. All you need really (and the less the better) is where do my hands need to be next and what is the resulting sound I expect. Any more than that and you're probably over thinking it.

Going back and listening to the original tempo you want or need to achieve and really absorbing this like in big chunks, will be just as important as the physical aspect in your fingers. Fast thinking will be needed to achieve it, but it starts with the end result you need.

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The racing aspect is lost on me ...

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If you are able to read quickly from the score, you can play quickly using the score. If you’re reading level is slower than the speed you need to play, yes, you do need to memorize.


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
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Animisha #3207981 04/10/22 12:34 PM
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There are lots of things we do in our everyday lives which rely totally on muscle memory, with input from our conscious thought only to 'change direction', the wider picture etc.

Literally so, for instance, when driving. Does any experienced driver think: I want to turn right, so first I indicate, then slow down, then look in my mirror, then look for cars coming, then change gear down, then brake? Or is that the wrong order??

No, we just think: I want to turn right, then.....all the things you need to do to enable that comes automatically - unless something unexpected happens, like someone walking straight across the road in front of you. You can think about whether you need to buy a carrot for your pet rabbit in the supermarket where you're heading for, or whether it would be happy with pellets out of the tin - while preparing to make the turn, and while turning. You have all those steps well-rehearsed in all sorts of scenarios, such that you don't have to consciously think: which step comes first, and which step follows etc. But if this is your first attempt at driving, you have to think about each and every single step. You'll probably stall the engine, or hit the kerb, or panic.......or all three. crazy

Same for fast piano playing. Practice the sequence(s) to get them into muscle memory, and disengage your conscious brain. Then you only have to think of the bigger picture, like: I want to make a crescendo toward the middle of the phrase, then......maybe hold it at that level or make a diminuendo? So, you try both methods, to see which you like better, all the while your fingers know what to play because all the notes are already "in your fingers". You might still be reading the score, but your fingers know what to do, such that you might see something in the score that you hadn't noticed before, like a line in LH that imitates the melody in RH half a bar later, so you decide to bring that out....all the while still playing non-stop. You have the notes so well-rehearsed that you can just 'manipulate' how you play them, on the spur of the moment.

That is how you get good at playing fast.

Incidentally, if you are a good sight-reader, you can even do all that on your first try.......


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
bennevis #3207987 04/10/22 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
There are lots of things we do in our everyday lives which rely totally on muscle memory, with input from our conscious thought only to 'change direction', the wider picture etc.

Literally so, for instance, when driving. Does any experienced driver think: I want to turn right, so first I indicate, then slow down, then look in my mirror, then look for cars coming, then change gear down, then brake? Or is that the wrong order??

No, we just think: I want to turn right, then.....all the things you need to do to enable that comes automatically - unless something unexpected happens, like someone walking straight across the road in front of you. You can think about whether you need to buy a carrot for your pet rabbit in the supermarket where you're heading for, or whether it would be happy with pellets out of the tin - while preparing to make the turn, and while turning. You have all those steps well-rehearsed in all sorts of scenarios, such that you don't have to consciously think: which step comes first, and which step follows etc. But if this is your first attempt at driving, you have to think about each and every single step. You'll probably stall the engine, or hit the kerb, or panic.......or all three. crazy

Same for fast piano playing. Practice the sequence(s) to get them into muscle memory, and disengage your conscious brain. Then you only have to think of the bigger picture, like: I want to make a crescendo toward the middle of the phrase, then......maybe hold it at that level or make a diminuendo? So, you try both methods, to see which you like better, all the while your fingers know what to play because all the notes are already "in your fingers". You might still be reading the score, but your fingers know what to do, such that you might see something in the score that you hadn't noticed before, like a line in LH that imitates the melody in RH half a bar later, so you decide to bring that out....all the while still playing non-stop. You have the notes so well-rehearsed that you can just 'manipulate' how you play them, on the spur of the moment.

That is how you get good at playing fast.

This muscle memory stuff irks me to no end. The muscles in your fingers have no structures that remember their movements. The brain sends firing instructions to the muscles in the fingers in order to accomplish some task. You may feel that it is at an subconscious level but your brain is working all the same. You don’t have anything in your fingers stored up that allows you play a piece without engaging your brain.

This is the same for running, by the way. The brain sets the target firing speed for the leg muscles based on what it has learned in previous training runs. At a start line of a race, one the runner has never run, the brain does forward planning based on previous training runs, from which it knows distance and pace.

I would say a similar thing happens when one studies the piano. Practice of a piece at a certain tempo trains the firing of muscles at a certain rate. With practice, one trains the brain to fire the muscles at a faster rate.

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Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
I have a feeling that one important issue here is whether you are playing from memory, or playing from the score. I learn initially by playing from the score, at a glacially slow pace, and there is no chance of playing it fast until I have memorized it. When it has been adequately memorized, so that I can play it without conscious awareness of where to put my fingers, then I may increase speed.

Ultimately, I believe the goal is the state Qazsedcft described in his other post:

Total Freedom

where the movements seem effortless.

Whether this applies to everyone, or just "memorizers", or just me, I don't know, but playing fast with conscious awareness of what is being played, and playing fast without this conscious awareness, are two distinct things, and the body movements are not the same in those two cases.
I know exactly what you mean because I used to be a memorizer and my first few years were pretty much like you describe. I would memorize patterns of motions and the speeding up phase of learning was mostly without the score.

Unfortunately, that kind of memory is not very reliable. I remember totally losing my place and fumbling to restart or being confused for several seconds when my teacher asked me to start at a specific place in the music.

In recent years I have made it a point to always follow along the music when I practice something and through dedicated practice I made large improvements in reading skills and I think this changed the way I approach learning pieces. I follow the score even when playing something fast. I don't mean that I am consciously aware of every finger when playing but I definitely have some connection with the notes on the sheet because if you take away the music I wouldn't be able to play it.

I think this way of learning is more reliable and in the end I find it more enjoyable. I can still take a piece I learned, say, 1 year ago and play it from the score - maybe slower than I used to but it would still be there. Before learning this way I would forget a piece rather quickly after dropping it.

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... disengage your conscious brain...

Sounds nice, maybe we can all just start channeling Chopin cool .

Perhaps this works for concert pianists, but for adult beginners I'd suggest staying very much aware. Sure, you can get lost in the music, but it usually results in a crash and burn if you ask me.

Seriously, I get it but this is not needed to achieve speed.

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Originally Posted by Greener
... disengage your conscious brain...

Another name for that is death.

Last edited by LarryK; 04/10/22 12:56 PM.
Moo :) #3207994 04/10/22 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Moo :)
As I said before, if you want more useful tips you need to put the music you are playing or a video otherwise it's probably not clear what the issue is or if there even is one

Hi Moo!

My question was not: Please help me with this particular piece to play it faster.
My question was: When I learn to play one piece fast, will I also have improved my general capacity for playing fast, or will I only have learned to play this piece fast?


Playing the piano is learning to create, playfully and deeply seriously, our own music in the world.
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