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#3195239 02/18/22 12:58 PM
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Hi everyone, I'm new to the forum but have been lurking for a while. I'm looking to purchase my daughter (8 year old) an upright piano. She started her lessons 6 months ago, we bought her a Roland FRP-1digital piano from Costco thinking we have a couple of years to see if she is serious. Her teacher didn't push us to get a real piano so we didn't look into it at all. However, she's progressing quite quickly and she told me she feels like she plays better on her teacher's baby grand.

Long story short, we're looking for an entry level upright piano for her and have looked at a couple of piano gallery. The problem is me and my husband knows nothing about piano. One of our local gallery is selling the '98 Kawai 505F for $3200 and '98 Young Chang F110 for the same price (both are console) They both look to be in good condition. Is that a fair price for each of them?

They also offer a 10 year warranty on both and lifetime trade-in. Never been piano shopping before but that's sounds too good to be true, is that common to offer a lifetime trade in for a 20 plus years piano?

I've been checking craigslist too but someone told me unless you know something about piano, don't go that route. Anyway, any suggestions, tips and recommendations are welcomed. We're trying to stay in the 5k range. And hoping to have it for a long time. Thank you in advance!

Last edited by emcgu; 02/18/22 01:04 PM.
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Hi there, last year I helped a local family check out pianos for their young daughter. The one they ended up getting was a 1-year old Kawai 506N. The brand new ones were in the ~$4000 range if I recall. I was impressed by this little Kawai console and wouldn't hesitate to recommend it for a beginner. Also, there is a 10 year transferable warranty that's attractive to buyers if you decide to sell. Good luck!!


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Knowledgable people here will tell you exactly what to do.

But a first advice usually is that whatever (used) piano you buy, make sure you get it checked up thoroughly by a piano tech (contracted by you).

There are lots of very good second hand pianos to be found. I just bought myself a Yamaha U1 - a classic school piano - a couple of years ago. It's a dream to play and have a very nice sound. And you would probably get one for approximately half it's new price if it has some 10 - 15 years and is in good condition.

Others will tell you not to buy too old pianos. I'd say that's up to how they've been taken care of (tuned, climate controlled etc) and what the tech says.

Most important is of course how your daughter finds it to play on. If she likes it as much - or more - as her teachers.

Depending on your budget, there's of course a number of new models to choose from, and I'd stick to the major brands in that case.

Lifetime trade in of course presumes the dealer is still operative when the time comes.

And then there's the question wether you should consider a digital piano. But that's another story alltogether... wink

Best of luck in your search and your daughters piano journey!!!

Last edited by Ajax69; 02/18/22 01:20 PM.

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Also, I just saw your question about trade in. It's not too good to be true because then you have more limited negotiating ability on your next piano. So I would not factor that into your decision.

And I would see if your daughter's teacher would be willing to come help you shop and decide!

Last edited by twocats; 02/18/22 01:20 PM.

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You might consider a higher quality digital piano as an option. The one you have is solidly entry level. For $2000ish you could buy something that would feel much more like an acoustic action. Given your daughter's age and time playing, that would offer you a less expensive transition to an acoustic. Acoustic pianos are heavy so you need to pay for movers, they require more attention to humidity and sun exposure in your home, and you'll need to have it tuned regularly depending on the environment in your home. You might also find it helpful for her to be able to use headphones some of the time. I'm not discouraging you from buying an acoustic, I own one.

Not to set your head spinning, but your budget is close to allowing you to buy a hybrid piano, which has an action very close to an acoustic but otherwise is a digital. You could look at the Yamaha NU1X or Kawai NV5S to get a better idea what they are. A used NU1 or NU1X should be within your budgeted amount, or an NV5 if you can find one.


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Originally Posted by twocats
And I would see if your daughter's teacher would be willing to come help you shop and decide!

That’s great advice, most teachers are very willing to help their students find a good instrument. 😊👍

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Hello, it seems that the Kawai would be a little overpriced and the Young Chang even more so based on current listings on Pianomart.com (it's a good resource, check them out) .... but if the store really honors 100% trade-in for these, that could work out nicely for you. Just think of the extra premium you pay now as a deposit for your future upgrade.


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When I was a kid, my parents got me a Yamaha console to learn on, and it was the piano I practiced on for many years. I think these are solid options for young people starting on their piano journey, although if she sticks with piano, she will outgrow the console at some point (although it will probably be many years). If you can find a Yamaha U1 or Kawai K300 that is in good condition and within your budget, these are definitely better instruments than the consoles. But the consoles should still do the job.
That said, the ones you are looking at are not young pianos anymore, and particularly as these are entry level instruments, I would be worried about whether they are in good condition. I also think they may be priced a little high. The closest current model to the 505F is the Kawai 508. I would recommend that you spend some time looking at the PianoBuyer.com website. It has a lot of useful information. It includes information about the “SMP” or suggested maximum price. This value is based on research they have done, and it has been common to be able to get 20-30% off the SMP for a new piano. This specific article is about pricing of used pianos: https://www.pianobuyer.com/article/buying-a-used-or-restored-piano-how-much-is-it-worth/
It has a depreciation table that will give you a ballpark idea of reasonable prices. If I start off with the base price of the Kawai 508 of 6590, take 20% off for a ‘typical’ discount, and then depreciate it to 35% that value (which is what the table suggests is what you can expect for a piano this age in excellent condition), I get $1845 as the upper limit of what you might expect to pay for the Kawai.

My opinion is that if your budget is around 5000, you have a number of options, which I think would be reasonable: get a new or almost new Yamaha or Kawai console (I think you could negotiate one of these to ~5000). Another option would be to look for a Yamaha U1 or Kawai K300 that is 15 years old or less (two extremely popular models, and popular for good reason). A third option would be to look for a new studio size upright from a good Chinese manufacturer (something like a Ritmuller, but there are other manufacturers as well). I *think* you could negotiate these pianos to within your budget. These options have different advantages and drawbacks, but I think they could all be reasonable for your daughter.

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Originally Posted by twocats
Also, I just saw your question about trade in. It's not too good to be true because then you have more limited negotiating ability on your next piano. So I would not factor that into your decision.

And I would see if your daughter's teacher would be willing to come help you shop and decide!

You read my mind. I think those prices are already buffered in for the lifetime trade-in options too, I didn't think about the fact that it actually would limit my power of negotiation in the future. Thanks for pointing that out! I'm going to look into Kawai K506n. My daughter had her first piano recital at Kawai Gallery Concert Hall and all the piano in there were wayyy above our budget. I didn't know they make anything less than 10K.

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Originally Posted by Ajax69
Knowledgable people here will tell you exactly what to do.

But a first advice usually is that whatever (used) piano you buy, make sure you get it checked up thoroughly by a piano tech (contracted by you).

There are lots of very good second hand pianos to be found. I just bought myself a Yamaha U1 - a classic school piano - a couple of years ago. It's a dream to play and have a very nice sound. And you would probably get one for approximately half it's new price if it has some 10 - 15 years and is in good condition.

Others will tell you not to buy too old pianos. I'd say that's up to how they've been taken care of (tuned, climate controlled etc) and what the tech says.

Most important is of course how your daughter finds it to play on. If she likes it as much - or more - as her teachers.

Depending on your budget, there's of course a number of new models to choose from, and I'd stick to the major brands in that case.

Lifetime trade in of course presumes the dealer is still operative when the time comes.

And then there's the question wether you should consider a digital piano. But that's another story alltogether... wink

Best of luck in your search and your daughters piano journey!!!

Thanks for your input!!! I don't mind old pianos if I know the history of it and knows how to identify a good one. Yamaha U1 seems to be a popular model, I keep hearing people talking about it. There is one for sale at our piano gallery for less than 5k but I don't know what year it is. I just sent them an email to inquire about it.How do you find a piano technician and how much do they usually charge for their service to help pick out piano?

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Originally Posted by MarkL
You might consider a higher quality digital piano as an option. The one you have is solidly entry level. For $2000ish you could buy something that would feel much more like an acoustic action. Given your daughter's age and time playing, that would offer you a less expensive transition to an acoustic. Acoustic pianos are heavy so you need to pay for movers, they require more attention to humidity and sun exposure in your home, and you'll need to have it tuned regularly depending on the environment in your home. You might also find it helpful for her to be able to use headphones some of the time. I'm not discouraging you from buying an acoustic, I own one.

Not to set your head spinning, but your budget is close to allowing you to buy a hybrid piano, which has an action very close to an acoustic but otherwise is a digital. You could look at the Yamaha NU1X or Kawai NV5S to get a better idea what they are. A used NU1 or NU1X should be within your budgeted amount, or an NV5 if you can find one.


I have not looked further into higher end digital piano at all as I always hear people say that no digital would produce the same sound quality and action compared to an acoustic. I've seen hybrid but don't know much about it, I'll definitely check out those models you recommend, maybe will go in to try them out too. Thank you so much for your input!

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Originally Posted by emcgu
Thanks for your input!!! I don't mind old pianos if I know the history of it and knows how to identify a good one. Yamaha U1 seems to be a popular model, I keep hearing people talking about it. There is one for sale at our piano gallery for less than 5k but I don't know what year it is. I just sent them an email to inquire about it.How do you find a piano technician and how much do they usually charge for their service to help pick out piano?

You could either start asking here. There's a "Piano Tuner - Technicians" section here at PW. Or - Google in your area.


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Some others have given wonderful advice, I'll just reiterate some of it and add my thoughts.

First of all I would like to start on the digital vs acoustic argument. Although it is true that no current digital can achieve the exact sound and feel of a high-end acoustic, this doesn't automatically mean acoustic pianos are better. If you're looking at the 5k range then I would definitely say the good acoustic options outshine the digitals. However, if you take it down to 2k-3k then I would argue a good digital (Kawai CA49 or CA79, Yamaha CLP 745, etc.) are a good match for the acoustics you'd find in that range.

However, you've said your price range is 5k so let's go from there. My personal recommendation is looking for a used Yamaha U1 or Kawai K300/K500. These are very popular models and phenomenal bang for buck beginner - intermediate pianos. Unlike a console which might start to struggle to produce clear tones on intermediate repertoire, these will be viable for your daughter to learn on until an advanced level. Because they're so popular, they tend to be all over the used market as well.

So, if you can find one of those for <5k in a good condition, I would highly recommend that. As others have said, bringing an independent technician along is a great tip and can prevent you buying into a bad deal.

If you can't find one of those models, then a console is also a fine choice. With this I would recommend at least considering the digital route though. Unlike a small acoustic, good digitals don't have many issues with muddy sound since the sound isn't based off an actual mechanism and vibrations in the same way. This means a quality digital could potentially outperform the console beyond beginner repertoire.

Last tip of all; every piano is a different instrument. As such, if you get the opportunity to I would recommend visiting the piano you're looking at and playing it. Bring your daughter along as well if possible, that way you can be sure she likes the instrument you're buying smile

Last edited by ThomasG; 02/18/22 06:14 PM.
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Originally Posted by emcgu
How do you find a piano technician and how much do they usually charge for their service to help pick out piano?

ptg.org has a directory of Registered Piano Technicians; I recommend you start there. I think it's usually about $100 to get a piano checked out. So unless you find one that seems in great condition for a great price but you just need to have it examined to make sure, I think someone in your position may find it easier to buy new from a dealer with warranty etc. If your daughter progresses to a higher level and you want to upgrade, then I'm sure she'll have much more input on the purchase!

I've never heard of a Kawai Gallery Concert Hall but I'm guessing they have all their high end instruments in the main showroom, but perhaps have their more budget models somewhere else? The 506N is made in Indonesia and not Japan, but under Kawai's quality control. I know that there have been pandemic supply issues but definitely ask!


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Originally Posted by Sgisela
When I was a kid, my parents got me a Yamaha console to learn on, and it was the piano I practiced on for many years. I think these are solid options for young people starting on their piano journey, although if she sticks with piano, she will outgrow the console at some point (although it will probably be many years). If you can find a Yamaha U1 or Kawai K300 that is in good condition and within your budget, these are definitely better instruments than the consoles. But the consoles should still do the job.
That said, the ones you are looking at are not young pianos anymore, and particularly as these are entry level instruments, I would be worried about whether they are in good condition. I also think they may be priced a little high. The closest current model to the 505F is the Kawai 508. I would recommend that you spend some time looking at the PianoBuyer.com website. It has a lot of useful information. It includes information about the “SMP” or suggested maximum price. This value is based on research they have done, and it has been common to be able to get 20-30% off the SMP for a new piano. This specific article is about pricing of used pianos: https://www.pianobuyer.com/article/buying-a-used-or-restored-piano-how-much-is-it-worth/
It has a depreciation table that will give you a ballpark idea of reasonable prices. If I start off with the base price of the Kawai 508 of 6590, take 20% off for a ‘typical’ discount, and then depreciate it to 35% that value (which is what the table suggests is what you can expect for a piano this age in excellent condition), I get $1845 as the upper limit of what you might expect to pay for the Kawai.

My opinion is that if your budget is around 5000, you have a number of options, which I think would be reasonable: get a new or almost new Yamaha or Kawai console (I think you could negotiate one of these to ~5000). Another option would be to look for a Yamaha U1 or Kawai K300 that is 15 years old or less (two extremely popular models, and popular for good reason). A third option would be to look for a new studio size upright from a good Chinese manufacturer (something like a Ritmuller, but there are other manufacturers as well). I *think* you could negotiate these pianos to within your budget. These options have different advantages and drawbacks, but I think they could all be reasonable for your daughter.

Thanks for your reply! Although budget is around 5k, that's the number I kinda throw out based on what I see a good brand used going for at the piano gallery (not realizing most of them are probably overpriced). Good to know that I have a big range of selections for the budget. Also thank you for the website, lots of great info that will keep me busy for a while before I make my decision.

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Originally Posted by ThomasG
Some others have given wonderful advice, I'll just reiterate some of it and add my thoughts.

First of all I would like to start on the digital vs acoustic argument. Although it is true that no current digital can achieve the exact sound and feel of a high-end acoustic, this doesn't automatically mean acoustic pianos are better. If you're looking at the 5k range then I would definitely say the good acoustic options outshine the digitals. However, if you take it down to 2k-3k then I would argue a good digital (Kawai CA49 or CA79, Yamaha CLP 745, etc.) are a good match for the acoustics you'd find in that range.

However, you've said your price range is 5k so let's go from there. My personal recommendation is looking for a used Yamaha U1 or Kawai K300/K500. These are very popular models and phenomenal bang for buck beginner - intermediate pianos. Unlike a console which might start to struggle to produce clear tones on intermediate repertoire, these will be viable for your daughter to learn on until an advanced level. Because they're so popular, they tend to be all over the used market as well.

So, if you can find one of those for <5k in a good condition, I would highly recommend that. As others have said, bringing an independent technician along is a great tip and can prevent you buying into a bad deal.

If you can't find one of those models, then a console is also a fine choice. With this I would recommend at least considering the digital route though. Unlike a small acoustic, good digitals don't have many issues with muddy sound since the sound isn't based off an actual mechanism and vibrations in the same way. This means a quality digital could potentially outperform the console beyond beginner repertoire.

Last tip of all; every piano is a different instrument. As such, if you get the opportunity to I would recommend visiting the piano you're looking at and playing it. Bring your daughter along as well if possible, that way you can be sure she likes the instrument you're buying smile

All great tips. Thank you so much! I'll definitely look into those models you mentioned for acoustic, hopefully I can find a good condition used in my area. If push come to shove, I can't find any of those, I might have to talk her into looking into a higher end digital (she's quite set on acoustic but that's because she didn't know what I know now). She loves classical music (as of now) and for some reasons I tend to think acoustic sounds better for classical .. I might be wrong

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I've played some supposedly high end digitals (one of them retails for $6K and was supposed to be very realistic) and found them all disappointing. Personally I think there's nothing like a real acoustic piano, but you want to get one that plays evenly and responsively, with a nice tone and dynamic range smile


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Originally Posted by emcgu
All great tips. Thank you so much! I'll definitely look into those models you mentioned for acoustic, hopefully I can find a good condition used in my area. If push come to shove, I can't find any of those, I might have to talk her into looking into a higher end digital (she's quite set on acoustic but that's because she didn't know what I know now). She loves classical music (as of now) and for some reasons I tend to think acoustic sounds better for classical .. I might be wrong

Glad to have helped. If your daughter is set on an acoustic, that's never a bad route haha. Personally I think digitals can compete in the lower price range, however even the best of digitals can't replicate an acoustic perfectly.

The actual vibrations, the full action mechanism.These are aspects the player will notice. So yes, a good acoustic is a preferable instrument. The only problem is that finding a good acoustic can be a bit of a hassle sometimes, each instrument is slightly different after all.

I'm sure that with a budget of 5k, you have good acoustic options available if you're willing to put in the effort. For reference, models like the U1 and K300 are often sold used by dealers as well in this price range. That's a pretty safe bet for being able to see and play the instrument in person, I'd start there if you look at those smile

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Hi
if you live in the NY area
I would consider having a Tech look at this piano.

Not sure what condition it is in and what work needs to be done.
BUT
Mason & Hamlin A made prior to 1930 are considered some of the best grand pianos ever made.
Worth at least checking it out, esp. if you live close!

https://www.pianomart.com/buy-a-piano/view?id=48142

Ad is from Pianomart - a good/decent online selling listing.

good luck
brdwyguy


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here is a link for Upright Pianos
Sorry posted the wrong link


https://www.pianomart.com/buy-a-piano/piano-ads?AdSearchForm%5Bpiano_type_id%5D=3&AdSearchForm%5Bpiano_type_id%5D=3&AdSearchForm%5Bstate%5D=&AdSearchForm%5Bcountry%5D=&AdSearchForm%5Bposted_within%5D=&AdSearchForm%5Bkeyword_search%5D=&AdSearchForm%5Bmanufacturer_ids%5D=&AdSearchForm%5Bmin_size_id%5D=&AdSearchForm%5Bmax_size_id%5D=&AdSearchForm%5Bzip%5D=&AdSearchForm%5Bradius%5D=&AdSearchForm%5Bcolor_ids%5D=&AdSearchForm%5Bmax_price%5D=5000


1961-1964: Lester or Emerson Upright
1969-1992: Westbrook Spinet
1991-2021: Schomacker Model A (1912) "Schoowie"
2021-Present: Steinway Model A (1912) "Amalia"

To Listen to my Music is to know me. To know me all you need do is listen to my music.
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