Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum Assessing your musical memory at a later age

This is excellent advice, very similar to what I've suggested in the past. If I was to add one thing, it would be this:

You can also have visual memory of your hand positions. I tend to use this much more than memory of the score, which I have not yet developed. Once it is decent enough, you will be able to play the piece in your mind, imagining your hands on a virtual keyboard. This memory of hand positions ties into the memory of the piece and serves as a retrieval cue while playing.

I've heard that the learning types (visual, kinesthetic etc) don't hold up to scrutiny. If you haven't already, check out how champion memorizers do it. Of course, it wouldn't translate completely to the a piano, but there is a link.

I completely disagree with this, if what you mean by 'visual memory' is as you described - visualizing (bits of) the score.

My visual memory is, I suspect, what most pianists who don't have photographic memory use: the visual appearance of the shapes your hands and fingers make on the keyboard when playing. (Why do concert pianists look at their hands even when playing music with no jumps?) For me, that's just part of muscle memory (or 'procedural memory', or whatever you want to call it).

What I find about many books that supposedly teach 'tricks' to do this or that faster, better, more brilliantly (whatever) is that their authors might well believe they have found the holy grail - but that only applies to themselves, but hardly anyone else, because others don't have their specific inherent capabilities (or gifts). For instance, those with perfect pitch might well tell everyone else to just 'hear' the note and play it. Well, I hear a note, say an A=440 but I don't know it is an A, because I don't have perfect pitch. And I'll never have perfect pitch, same as I'll never have photographic memory, not even anything close to it.

BTW, I've heard many concert pianists talk and write about how they memorize, and most do it broadly along the lines I have described: a lot of repetition (one pianist said: "If you play a piece often enough, you remember it.") to develop muscle memory, plus awareness of harmonic shifts (key changes etc), patterns you make with your hands plus the sounds that emanate from them, and lots of bolstering with auditory cues and of course, practice starting and stopping from several points in the piece.

I've done a bit more than hearing about it. It's in my teacher training, teaching practice, subsequent training and research, work with others, and my own learning. It is also essential for some types of learning disabilities. For example, the type of dyslexic who cannot visually follow shapes may still be able to trace the shape of sandpaper letters. The "scrutiny" comes from actual teaching, observing, practice, and if applicable, one's own learning.

I am now 76. I returned to the piano and lessons 10 years ago after 40 years. When I was in college, I just automatically memorized pieces from practicing them easily and quickly. When I started back
at 65, it did take me longer but I could still memorize pieces with enough work. However during the last two or three years I find it almost impossible to memorize pieces well enough that I would feel comfortable playing in front of others since I will forget at home when alone.I
still work part time and do not seem to have any problems there. It is encouraging to hear others that are older are still able to memorize so I think I will try to memorize some pieces again .

That is interesting, and so different from me. Except for checking in particular places in the score that I am actually hitting the right note, I positively do NOT look at my hands while playing. I find if I do look at them, it tends to put me off and I make mistakes.

Aren't you talking about playing from the score?

When playing from the score, I hardly ever look at my hands. But playing from memory is a completely different kettle of fish (= a whole new ball game for our American friends). You need all the help you can get - eyes, ears, feel.

Everyone's mileage varies so your mileage will certainly vary.

Interesting thread!
It is interesting that some posters include their age and some don't. Clearly, age is relevant in any discussion of memory.
It is interesting that some posters include their piano playing history. Clearly piano playing history makes a difference. Some posters are recent beginners, others are restarters, others have played consistently since childhood. Obviously, these circumstances are relevant.
It is interesting that learners benefit from different modalities (auditory, kinesthetic,visual, verbal, etc.) and that this is an individual difference.

Some of us remeber, some of us forget. Ultimately you will find your own way.

The Suzuki music program requires students to memorize pieces in Y1 before they're introduced to reading in Y2. Beginner pieces isn't too demanding to memorize. After Y2, some Suzuki students continue to rely on memory because they're used to doing it.

There are 2 main ways to reproduce music: by reading or from memory. I've seen people who haven't quite master either. A few years ago I went to a piano recital. The young virtuoso was the 9-year old Ryan Wang from Vancouver. He play the entire 40 min. concert from memory (pieces by Bach, Schumann, Mozart, etc). Even if he read some or all his pieces wouldn't make his performance any less enjoyable.

3 years ago I met a retired man in his 70s. He got into playing piano to learn the piece his father played years ago which is over 5 min. With no knowledge in music or playing an instrument, he spent 3 months memorizing hand positions from video demos online. Every time I suggested that it'd be easier to learn to read and learn from the score he'd say notations is a foreign language that is too difficult to master. Someone like him who relies on memory completely to learn pieces reading off the score is not an option. Everybody who heard him play thought that he has been playing for many years. He has serious health issues but no major memory lapses that would prevent him from playing pieces up to 7 min.

Memory issues would show up when we get older. People would remember details about family vacations or special occasions from long ago while they would forget the things that was said in a phone conversation a day ago. The last Christmas gathering I played a few seasonal pieces. And I played the 3-page piece I arranged from an orchestral score for piano from memory. Hopefully I'd continue to play this piece into my 70s and beyond since I worked on it for weeks. At this point in my life I suffer from insomnia but still practice music everyday whenever I'm up. The daily brain exercise would keep me from ending up with symptoms of dementia like my father later in life. At age 5 I couldn't play anything more difficult than "Twinkle". There are still many pieces others already learned at a young age that I'm learning as an older adult today. I think that the delayed music education is a mixed blessing. Instead of taking a break, I'm working to catch up so I'm constantly pushing to learn new pieces which is good for the brain.

Mary, mtb,

I found your description of the ideas behind the book and how the tools for memorisation work, really interesting. Thanks for that response it was really useful for me.

Thank you so much Mary for your answer! I read every word of it with great interest.
I have a friend who is a natural memoriser, and after heaving read about other people's struggles with memory, he asked: -But don't you all see the score in front of you when you play?
I thought he was joking! But he was serious.

But you are quite right, or actually Stephanie Burns is quite right. When I need to memorise a passage, I do this solely by trying to create procedural memory, and this takes forever, and even when I think that I have got it, it still happens I that I make a mistake. Next time, I'll try to create a visual memory with the help of the steps that you described.

Thank you so much!

I have problems with short-term memory, for example, in the fact that I forget which accidentals are in the key; or if there are many changes in accidentals within a bar - which accidentals remain. Once upon a time, such questions did not occupy me at all. In addition, in a state of weakened memory, it makes no sense to fight with notes in order to learn by memory, using more time and effort than in youth - this is unproductive and impractical. It is preferable to face the truth and play by notes.
In terms of my 76 years

If there are no visual memory skills from childhood, in the adult period it cannot be developed (excluding chemicals) - the opinion of an aphant.

Really? I’m not aware of using any visual memory in childhood, but as an adult I use visual memory for hand movement. I have horrible visual memory of the physical score: I can visualize it away from the piano, but the process is so slow to make it unusable while playing. I now limit the score visualization to a few key trigger points, such as new sections, top of pages, etc. used along with other memorization tools such as kinesthetic, auditory and analytical, it is one more tool.— even if just a rusty one.

How is that different from muscle memory ? Seems to me it's really the same thing. I can get visual memory of my hands / finger position, but it takes maybe 20 iterations to get there.

Muscle memory is the memory of how different movements feel. You initially learn the notes but then as you practice to get it solidly "into your fingers" you switch to performing the movements automatically without being conciously aware of what the notes actually are. That is so called "finger memory" - it's a memory of proprioception, touch, feel, etc. Since you rely on various proprioceptive cues like where your hands are at a given moment it's very easy to throw off and have a blank out with this type of memory, especially in an unfamiliar environment or situation.

Having visual memory of your hands is not much better if you only memorize hand positions without being fully aware of everything you are playing. The real memory booster IMO is visualization.

Visualization is the act of practicing a piece or passage in your head. It doesn't involve only visual memory, however. You should see it, hear it, feel it, etc. All the same senses that are activated while playing the piece for real but you also have to be extremely aware of what each finger is doing at any given time. Is that note an E or an E-flat? Am I still holding my thumb down or releasing it by this point in the music? I'm doing something with 3 and 4 here but which exact notes are they playing? etc. It requires a lot of focus to do it but it is well worth the effort.

How do you do it? Start small like with everything. Hands separate at first. Play a short phrase with your right hand (physically at the piano). Go very slow and look closely at what your hand is doing. Now, close your eyes and play the same phrase (physically) with eyes closed and imagine seeing exactly what your hand is doing, which notes it is playing, etc. Now, put your hand in your lap and do the same thing mentally. Repeat several times physically and mentally. At the end of the session sit comfortably in a chair and rehearse it again mentally. After a few sessions of this you will be able to close your eyes and practice the passage mentally without playing it physically.

Of course, it requires a lot of concentration at first just like playing hands together or doing anything at the piano requires a lot of concentration and seems extremely difficult at first. If you never practice a skill you cannot expect to be good at it. But as with any skill, over time you get better and it becomes easier and more natural.

This is the nub of it. That is indeed what she's trying to describe - not the score itself but the playing that results from it. Note that further down she adds the caveat - "never try to memorize a score you can’t yet play".

I'm 54, once I complete the RCM program, I am going to convert to jazz. Problem solved!!! :-)

Hold on there Batman! Jazz players have a huge memory of tunes, chord changes, lick patterns, rhythms... They might not be using music, but they have a lot of things memorized.

Sam

You forgot to add the main thing: they have FREEDOM!