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I'd love to hear if there are any kind of strategies or tips specifically for purchasing factory new premium EU grands for ultimate delivery to the US. Back in the day (and I assume still now) when shopping for a BMW, you could get a "European delivery" option where you custom-order a car, fly to Germany and take delivery, and drive it around for a few days on vacation before dropping out of at a port, and after a few weeks it shows up at your dealer for final pickup.

Is there anything like that Bosendorfer, Bechstein, etc.? Are there less exotic strategies such as buying from out of state (especially if you can't find one locally to play-test) where you won't run into problems getting shunned by your local dealer because you didn't go through them?

I'd love to know particularly for "long-term planning" purposes. It would be easier to prep for a spider in Vienna if I have a few years to noodle on it.

I guess on the same note, are there conventions on custom orders such as picking your own hardware finish/veneer that are worth considering, versus stock specs?


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What particular premium European brands are you thinking of that might not be available through a US dealer? I have read of people going to (or traveling in) Europe and picking out a specific piano that they had shipped from the manufacturer, but I have not read of any special programs akin to those of some automobile dealers. This could get very expensive.

Doesn't Volvo do something similar?

If you are dealing directly with a manufacturer, just as you would with a dealer, is it not better to have picked out the specific piano that you played rather than just order a piano that you have not played? Even among premium brands you might like but not love one that you have not personally picked.

I am sure that any company that accepts individual orders will also give you the finish you want - for a price.

Regards,


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Thanks BruceD, good questions.

Originally Posted by BruceD
What particular premium European brands are you thinking of that might not be available through a US dealer?
At this point in my piano journey, I'm just trying to educate myself. I'm starting to understand better what I like/want, and am interested in knowing what's involved in making it happen (and if it's worth it).

Originally Posted by BruceD
I have read of people going to (or traveling in) Europe and picking out a specific piano that they had shipped from the manufacturer, but I have not read of any special programs akin to those of some automobile dealers. This could get very expensive.
Me too, which is why I wanted to ask if there are any kind of programs, or even informal arrangements that make it appealing. On the car side, depending on how expensive the car is, you can either subsidize or entirely pay for the full vacation with the price savings from EU delivery. Even if there isn't a program, I'd be interested in knowing if there are tariff/tax-rebate/shipping/fx savings that may make such a strategy possible/appealing?

Originally Posted by BruceD
Doesn't Volvo do something similar?
Yep, I recall looking into that as well for a Scandinavian delivery...

Originally Posted by BruceD
If you are dealing directly with a manufacturer, just as you would with a dealer, is it not better to have picked out the specific piano that you played rather than just order a piano that you have not played? Even among premium brands you might like but not love one that you have not personally picked.
That's part of what I'm wondering. In the US, I'm assuming there will be somewhat limited stock for any given model to play/choose from. Do you just accept that and select from what's available? Do I tell them I want to choose from at least 3 "Model X" grands and chop-chop, order them for your store for me to kick the tires? Do people regularly travel to the larger showrooms/galleries, or even manufacturer's factory to try a bigger selection? I've heard of things such as Steinway galleries not even prepping pianos they have on the floor unless you commit to purchasing, and I assume that's a bit of an extreme, but i want to know what I can expect or what options exist.


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Originally Posted by Gombessa
[...]Do you just accept that and select from what's available? Do I tell them I want to choose from at least 3 "Model X" grands and chop-chop, order them for your store for me to kick the tires? Do people regularly travel to the larger showrooms/galleries, or even manufacturer's factory to try a bigger selection? I've heard of things such as Steinway galleries not even prepping pianos they have on the floor unless you commit to purchasing, and I assume that's a bit of an extreme, but i want to know what I can expect or what options exist.

From what I have read over the years - and not from any personal experience - if you want a piano that requires the dealer to place a special order of an instrument he does not have in stock - you will get that one instrument shipped ... maybe. On such an order some dealers may require partial payment up front which is the customer's commitment to buying the piano. I doubt that there are dealers who will order "at least 3 'Model X' grands which might not sell to the clientele s/he usually deals with.

How people choose their piano cannot be covered in a generalization. Some will choose from what a local dealer has in stock. Others may go outside their immediate area to visit other dealers to experience a wider selection. Still others, but fewer of course, may travel considerable distances to even larger urban centres with several well-known dealerships to find their ideal piano. This last example, of course, involves travel expenses and added shipping costs.

Regards,


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Bruce,

Although I'm UK-based so in a slightly different position, I explored doing something similar, wanting to purchase a make that is not generally available here. I can tell you that if you are like pianos (and you probably do since you're reading this forum) - then the trip will be an enjoyable (if expensive) experience, and you may well find your perfect instrument. Many vendors will behappy arrange the shipping - which is expensive. Some might offer Voicing, custom finishes or other adjustments to suite Your taste. You may even get a better deal (in the case of one specific make, I was offered a fantastic deal). Most of the European makers will be more than happy to accomodate you.

However, Some companies who already have a US-dealer may be contractually unable to sell around them - and will insist the transaction goes through their dealer. so be sure to ask that question before booking your flight.

If you do go this way, I recommend setting up appointments well in advance and letting your hosts know which MODELS you are after (i.e. not just makes) you're interested in. Also ask about Warranty and service, and get it in writing.

Finally - Enjoy it!


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Last I heard, Sauter will sell directly from Germany to North American consumers.

Some brands sell for much less in the EU than the US. Petrof is reportedly one of those brands.


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Originally Posted by Gombessa
I'd love to hear if there are any kind of strategies or tips specifically for purchasing factory new premium EU grands for ultimate delivery to the US. Back in the day (and I assume still now) when shopping for a BMW, you could get a "European delivery" option where you custom-order a car, fly to Germany and take delivery, and drive it around for a few days on vacation before dropping out of at a port, and after a few weeks it shows up at your dealer for final pickup.

Is there anything like that Bosendorfer, Bechstein, etc.? Are there less exotic strategies such as buying from out of state (especially if you can't find one locally to play-test) where you won't run into problems getting shunned by your local dealer because you didn't go through them?

I'd love to know particularly for "long-term planning" purposes. It would be easier to prep for a spider in Vienna if I have a few years to noodle on it.

I guess on the same note, are there conventions on custom orders such as picking your own hardware finish/veneer that are worth considering, versus stock specs?
BMW stopped that facility at least ten years ago. I was then with a friend from Boston who already owned a BMW and we visited a Bavaria main dealer who said that BMW would not allow it.


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Rich Galassini and Sam Bennett are both Bösendorfer dealers and both post on this forum!


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Most of the German factories have generated tales of US buyers visiting. And all US dealers should be able to make an appointment for their customers. Particularly if this is a special order with exotic veneer, or if otherwise the model you want is not present over here, you ought to be able to fly over and take a look at what your options are.

If your question is whether you can buy direct-- no dealer markup-- that is a different question.

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Originally Posted by almo82
Bruce,

Although I'm UK-based so in a slightly different position, I explored doing something similar, wanting to purchase a make that is not generally available here. I can tell you that if you are like pianos (and you probably do since you're reading this forum) - then the trip will be an enjoyable (if expensive) experience, and you may well find your perfect instrument. [...]

almo82:

Why are you addressing me in this post? I am not the one inquiring.

Regards,


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Hi Bruce,

Apologies - my mistake: for some reason I thought you were the OP.


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Originally Posted by Retsacnal
Some brands sell for much less in the EU than the US. Petrof is reportedly one of those brands.

A great way to tell is to find new models in the EU on Klaviano.com - some French and German dealers will post their discounted prices.

Last edited by blueviewlaguna.; 01/19/22 04:17 AM.

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Thanks all, appreciate the feedback.

Sounds like this is mostly a greenfield space; and any kind of faux pas likely isn't violating an international norm.

To be clear, my intent isn't to price-shop and try to get the cheapest offer shipped from a store overseas; I just want to know whether there are regular practices/expectations dealing with available stock, factory selection and delivery, etc.

I recall seeing a story here about a member who visited the Bosendorfer factory on a whim and happened to be presented with a deal they couldn't pass up because of the strong dollar v. euro at the time, and it made me wonder whether this kind of thing happened regularly, or if there would be issues getting service/warranty because of it...


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For most top-tier brands, any factory selection for US delivery would need to be pre-arranged by your US dealer. Unless you were purchasing for an area without a distribution agreement (like some tiny island nation), a factory is unlikely to sell to you because you need a dealer of record. If your dealer of record is in the EU, then once the piano leaves the EU, then it will not have a warranty.

Warranties are territorial. When it enters a different territory than the one it was sold for, the warranty ends. For example, if you purchased a wonderful brand X here in the US with a 10 year warranty then relocated for work to Europe after 3 years, even though brand X sells pianos in Europe, they would not be legally obligated to honor it.

While it was not always the case, if you want to visit make a Bösendorfer factory selection now, the US dealer of record must accompany you, either a principle or a designated salesperson. I actually don't know what the policy is within the EU.

That is not the policy for all EU makers, but I'd guess you'd find a variety of approaches. It's not exactly "greenfield space".


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International shopping is an interesting concept with a history. Think of the large groups of chinese tourists who queued up (pre-Covid) at the doors of Hermès or Louis Vuitton in Paris to buy furiously expensive hand bags that they viewed as bargains because they were even more expensive at the Peking boutique of the same brand. The clever ones bought in pairs and resold one back home to pay for the trip. This is still true today in many developing countries with restrictions on currencies or imports.

The "Buy your Mercedes (or Volvo, Alfa Romeo, etc.) in Europe" phenomenon in America has a distinct flavour. It started in the fifties with thousands of american military personnel in Europe eventually going home, having discovered european cars makes that lacked at that time adequate dealer coverage in America. It peaked in the seventies, but mostly concerned diplomatics and ex-pats whose moving allowances (including their cars) were covered by their governments or employers. The major issue was that cars specifications (headlights, bumpers...) were very different in the US, and each deal specifically tailored. It's also obvious that shipping cars one by one rather than in shiploads would be much more expensive. But Mercedes-Benz had a tradition, even within Germany, that its clients could go to the factory for delivery of any custom order car, stepped in a mythology of bespoke fabrication. They kind of extended this tradition to international clients, if they were willing to support the added costs.

As far as pianos are concerned, international shopping deals should be much more feasable. Don't expect any from the volume brands, including Yamaha and Kawai, unless you are a renowned pianist yourself. They can't afford the staff to handhold personal deals. But I am sure there are Bechstein of Fazioli clients in countries were these brands have no dealers, and ways will be found to accomodate them.

Regarding the issue of dealers vs. direct factory sales, you will recognize a trend by the more exclusive brands to want to control their distribution by owning more of their sales outlets. This is the new mantra in luxury goods sales : I wrote a post on this before. This is only possible for them in locations were they have enough sales volume, but that generally includes their home market. This is why you will find company-owned stores for Bechstein in Berlin, Bösendorfer in Vienna, etc. Steinway-owned stores you will find nearly in all markets. If you hit Vienna for a Bosie, this is where you will be directed, not to the company offices.

Of course if you drop off at the airport from the US or any other place, they will be delighted to sell you anything from their local stock or take your order. In fact in Europe they are obligated by European Union law to do so. But delivery and warranty-wise, they will treat you like any other local client (If you are an EU resident, "local" means all of Europe). If you reside outside of Europe, shipping becomes your responsibility. It can be organised for you using third parties that will deal with customs, etc, but you will be the principal. Warranties? No idea. Probably a one on one negociation.

To some up, I agree with the poster that describes an international new piano shopping trip as a potentially very enjoyable experience, visiting Berlin, Hamburg, Vienna, Venice on the way. But it would concern only the four big european brands, and the upper tier of price ranges, mostly custom orders. I certainly enjoyed my grand tour of the factory in Hamburg when I ordered my Steinway from the company-owned showroom in Paris. But I paid the fare to Hamburg, to enjoy a concert at the new ElbPhilarmonie.


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Yamaha has selection rooms in New York and LA for Boesendorfer and hand made Yamahas. I would expect most major brands to have a selection room at their Manufacturing facilities.


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Originally Posted by PianoWorksATL
Warranties are territorial. When it enters a different territory than the one it was sold for, the warranty ends. For example, if you purchased a wonderful brand X here in the US with a 10 year warranty then relocated for work to Europe after 3 years, even though brand X sells pianos in Europe, they would not be legally obligated to honor it.

My, admittedly controversial view, is that longer term warranties on painstakingly well made items like a $ 75 000 + piano from BBFS (Bechstein, Bösendorfer, Fazioli, Steinway) are totally useless. The risk of a faulty third party component like on a digital is nil. At worse a part in the action may need adjustment, usually because of outside causes such as climate or mishandling. But this will cost very little to fix in comparison with the purchase price. The real risk is catastrophic dammage in transportation, but here we are in the field of insurance, not warranties. It could be like these "extended warranty" offers from Amazon or dealers in consumer goods. These are a scams, as they know well that problems will occur immediately after purchase, or after long years of use, and not in the few extra years they claim to cover.

Last edited by Vikendios; 01/20/22 08:00 AM.

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Originally Posted by Vikendios
Originally Posted by PianoWorksATL
Warranties are territorial. When it enters a different territory than the one it was sold for, the warranty ends. For example, if you purchased a wonderful brand X here in the US with a 10 year warranty then relocated for work to Europe after 3 years, even though brand X sells pianos in Europe, they would not be legally obligated to honor it.

My, admittedly controversial view, is that longer term warranties on painstakingly well made items like a $ 75 000 + piano from BBFS (Bechstein, Bösendorfer, Fazioli, Steinway) are totally useless. The risk of a faulty third party component like on a digital is nil. At worse a part in the action may need adjustment, usually because of outside causes such as climate or mishandling. But this will cost very little to fix in comparison with the purchase price. The real risk is catastrophic dammage in transportation, but here we are in the field of insurance, not warranties. It could be like these "extended warranty" offers from Amazon or dealers in consumer goods. These are a scams, as they know well that problems will occur immediately after purchase, or after long years of use, and not in the few extra years they claim to cover.

I am not sure how you came to this view in terms of your experience with seeing and repairing problems covered by piano manufacturer warranties. My opinion comes from years of reporting, repairing, and helping with piano problems covered by manufactures at every level and from the US, Europe, and Asia.
While a warranty is kind of like an insurance policy, you don't really need it until you need it, having a legit manufacturer warranty on your piano is definitely of tremendous value and the more expensive your piano is the more valuable the warranty. Some companies definitely stand behind their product better than others.

Some elite, expensive pianos are more likely to have a warranty concern than certain less expensive, mass produced products. Mass production gives far more feedback far more quickly regarding problems with workmanship and materials. I remember being told I was crazy to buy an Audi by my accountant because although it was an expensive German car, he had seen the crazy amounts his clients spent on repairs on their expensive German cars. Pianos are not cars, but the analogy holds.

As to Sam's point, he is correct. We have had instances of problems that would have been covered by the manufacturer had the piano been bought locally, but because the client bypassed his local dealer ( USA ) and bought in Europe, the manufacturer refused to cover the warranty, since it was voided by the way in which it was bought. These clients were told unequivocally that they would be covered by the manufacturer by the European dealer from whom they bought. This has been for both brands we represented and brands we don't represent but we work with in terms of warranty repairs.

Of course, I am biased by seeing a lot of this compared with most ( I am sure Sam and Rich have seen this as well as they also repair warranty claims in their shops ).

With all that, if you want to visit a factory on another continent to make a choice, by all means, do that. Make arrangements with your nearest dealer. You will want the piano shipped to them so they can uncrate it, check the piano thoroughly after its long shipment, and prepare it for you, and give you the follow up service necessary with all pianos, and especially elite pianos. Work out a price you feel good about and you get everything you want.


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Originally Posted by Vikendios
My, admittedly controversial view, is that longer term warranties on painstakingly well made items like a $ 75 000 + piano from BBFS (Bechstein, Bösendorfer, Fazioli, Steinway) are totally useless. The risk of a faulty third party component like on a digital is nil.

I disagree.
For nearly every acoustic piano I’ve owned, I’ve run into a situation where I’ve needed product support at the dealer/distributor/manufacturer level. Having bad support can really sour the ownership experience. And when you’re also an institutional customer (my day job), this gets multiplied by lots of pianos…and rules certain dealers and manufacturers in or out for future purchases.

Granted, as someone who plays, teaches, knows a little bit about the technical side, and writes published reviews of acoustic and digital pianos regularly, I am pickier than probably 98% of customers…to the point where I’ll often joke to dealers (they think I’m joking, but I’m sort of not) that, “You don’t want to sell me a piano.”


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But do manufacturers' guarantees cover any dealer services beyond faulty parts and manufacturing faults? Do piano dealers offer anything over and above?


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