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I'm thinking of very bright lights like the ones on LED fixtures. For example, if my Cocoweb grand piano floor lamp
https://www.cocoweb.com/piano-lamps/piano-floor-lamps/

was turned on and pointed more toward the lid and not towards the music desk, could it eventually harm the lid?

Last edited by pianoloverus; 01/01/22 08:57 PM.
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I wouldn't think these would ever harm a piano. They don't emit any UV light, and certainly aren't bright enough to cause a heat issue.


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Enough heat will do it, though. I had some handsome quartz reading lights which I thought might give a nice light for the piano, and my tech cautioned me that if they got too close, it could melt or blister the poly finish. Turned out, they didn't really give the right light for reading scores.


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1. Anyone know if the quartz lights Jeff Clef mentioned are hotter than LED lights?

2. Do most of you agree that it would be highly unlikely that the Cocoweb light I mentioned in my OP, even if focused on the case lid, could harm a piano's finish since it was specifically designed to be a piano light?

Thanks.

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I don't know about piano finishes, but LED lights can damage artwork, fading colours, as has been sadly discovered by museums.

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Never mind your piano, there are several articles on the web saying leds can cause irreparable damage to eyes.


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Originally Posted by Withindale
Never mind your piano, there are several articles on the web saying leds can cause irreparable damage to eyes.

Cleveland Clinic states there is not enough research yet

The articles that discuss possible retinal damage do not seem to clarify whether it is from direct exposure to the eye or from indirect exposure, such as shining an LED on a piece of paper or using an LED as ambient lighting. Do any of the articles you have read discuss indirect exposure?

In terms of artwork, this article states direct sunlight or halogen being harmful but not LED

https://www.architecturaldigest.com/story/how-to-light-art

Last edited by dogperson; 01/02/22 11:07 AM.

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No need for panic but best to go back to source starting with that French study. Might also be worth looking into coatings in spectacles. Manufacturers of leds and screens e.g. Dell are taking steps to limit potential harm.


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Originally Posted by Withindale
No need for panic but best to go back to source starting with that French study. Might also be worth looking into coatings in spectacles. Manufacturers of leds and screens e.g. Dell are taking steps to limit potential harm.


Below is the link to the summary of the French study which seems to discuss computer screens and not indirect exposure as in LED lighting shining on a page of music

https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/healt...alth-dangers-from-led-lighting-1.4423910


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Unfortunately, Van-Gogh's Sunflowers and other works of art have been damaged by LED lighting.


Artwork Damaged by LED lighting

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Originally Posted by prout
Unfortunately, Van-Gogh's Sunflowers and other works of art have been damaged by LED lighting.


Artwork Damaged by LED lighting

Isn’t the conclusion that possible damage is related to the type of chrome yellow and the type of LED ?

Professor Jenssens added: “Some LED Lights may emit much more blue/green light than ‘normal’ light sources.

‘We have observed that these wavelengths can speed up the discoloration of some very sensitive variants of the yellow pigment lead chromate.

‘We recommend Musea to become aware of the problem and, in those cases where it is required, choose LEDs that do not contain ‘extra’ blue/green in their emission spectrum.’


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Yes, that is correct. Incandescent lights have a lower amplitude in the blue part of the spectrum and will cause less damage to certain pigments than most commercial lighting LEDs which peak in the yellow area of the spectrum with a secondary lower peak in the blue area . Choosing the appropriate light source is very important.

When my wife and I built a pair of Clavichords, we did extensive research on pigments for the exterior case work. By carefully choosing (mostly inorganic) pigments, we were able to avoid fugitive colours. After 23 years of exposure to natural, incandescent and LED lighting, they still are as bright as our stored and hidden test samples.

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Originally Posted by prout
Yes, that is correct. Incandescent lights have a lower amplitude in the blue part of the spectrum and will cause less damage to certain pigments than most commercial lighting LEDs which peak in the yellow area of the spectrum with a secondary lower peak in the blue area . Choosing the appropriate light source is very important.

When my wife and I built a pair of Clavichords, we did extensive research on pigments for the exterior case work. By carefully choosing (mostly inorganic) pigments, we were able to avoid fugitive colours. After 23 years of exposure to natural, incandescent and LED lighting, they still are as bright as our stored and hidden test samples.

Thanks so very much!


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For information the OPINION of the French Agency for Food, Environmental and Occupational Health & Safety made various recommendations about regulating the sale of LED devices as well as proposing further research into risk levels.

The Agency's recommendations

Advance knowledge
Regarding the assessment of risks related to exposure to LEDs, ANSES underlines the need to
better quantify the risk levels associated with the identified effects. It thus recommends initiating
additional research aiming to:

 improve knowledge of exposure for the general population, workers and the environment;
 better characterise the health effects associated with the temporal modulation of the light from LEDs in addition to long-term phototoxicity;
 clarify the exposure-response relationship between exposure and the occurrence of health
effects (especially those involving circadian disruption, phototoxicity, etc.).

Lastly, to respond to the potential health effects associated with exposure to LED phototherapy
devices, the Agency advises the public authorities to have a risk-benefit assessment of these devices
undertaken by a competent organisation.

Adapt the regulations and improve information
In light of the newly available experimental data concerning phototoxicity mechanisms, ANSES
underlines the need to update the exposure limits (ELs) for blue light, especially to take into account
the specific situation of children, whose eye lens filters blue light much less efficiently than that of
adults and elderly people. These ELs are used to verify the compliance of LED systems with the
essential health and safety requirements set out in European directives.

Considering the results of the risk assessment undertaken as part of the collective expert appraisal,
ANSES recommends adapting the regulatory framework applicable to LED systems, in order to:

 restrict the sale of LED objects to the general public to those in photobiological risk group 0 or 1;
 limit the light intensity of vehicle lamps, while guaranteeing road safety;
 establish, at European level, limits minimising the temporal modulation of the light emitted by
all light sources (lighting systems, screens, LED objects), all while improving the characterisation of the related health effects.

Pending changes to the regulations, ANSES recommends raising awareness in the population and
encouraging people, children in particular, to limit their exposure to:
 blue-rich light before bedtime and during the night (LED screens: mobile telephones, tablets,
computers, etc.);
 blue-rich lighting, i.e. “cool white” lamps and luminaires, by favouring indirect lighting or using
diffusers;
 direct light from LED objects in risk group 2 or higher (hand-held lamps, toys, vehicle lamps,
etc.).

ANSES also draws attention to the varying levels of effectiveness of the current devices providing
protection against the phototoxicity of blue light (treated lenses, protective glasses, specific screens,
etc.). It also notes their lack of significant action on the preservation of circadian rhythms for which,
in the case of LED screens, exposure can only be limited by reducing the brightness and colour
temperature of screens. It encourages the establishment of standards defining performance criteria
for personal protective equipment in relation to blue light.

Last edited by Withindale; 01/02/22 03:28 PM.

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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
1. Anyone know if the quartz lights Jeff Clef mentioned are hotter than LED lights?

2. Do most of you agree that it would be highly unlikely that the Cocoweb light I mentioned in my OP, even if focused on the case lid, could harm a piano's finish since it was specifically designed to be a piano light?

Thanks.

1. For a given amount of light, LED's are _much_ cooler than "quartz lights" (halogen lights) or old-fashioned incandescent lights. The LED's are considerably more efficient in converting electrical power to light.

2. The linked page doesn't say anything about the spectrum of the lamps. I suspect that the rule for "light damage to finishes" is:

. . . The less blue-and-UV light, the better.

I know that's true for boat finishes. The longest-lasting finish -- Cetol -- is loaded up with iron oxide. It's a shade of brown -- no blue or UV gets through -- that's easy to recognize. As you cruise south, from New England (low UV environment) to Florida (high UV environment), the woodwork on resident boats goes from "clear varnish" to "Cetol".

I'm not going to hunt for "anti-blue" film to put over the LED light bulbs -- but you might want to do that. Or ask the lamp's makers to supply spectral information, which I bet they have.


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On the other hand, I have 2 grands with damaged finishes from the lid being folded back apparently all the time (both are antiques). On one of them I like the faded tone better than the part that was under the lid fold. I would like to fade the rest of the top and wonder if this can be done with some kind of light treatment.

Last edited by f4tune81; 01/02/22 09:24 PM.

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Great information Withindale!

I would love to have house lights and all websites change the hue of their light emittance from bluish in the morning to reddish in the evening. I think that would help keep our circadian rhythms balanced.


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Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
I would love to have house lights and all websites change the hue of their light emittance from bluish in the morning to reddish in the evening. I think that would help keep our circadian rhythms balanced.
Many computers these days have a night setting that modifies the color of the screen starting at whatever time you choose. It's even trickled down to the $150 chromebook I just bought myself. It's a little creepy if I happen to be looking at the screen when it changes, makes me think my eyesight is failing.

Last edited by MarkL; 01/03/22 10:16 AM.

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This thread has become hyperbolic and alarmist. First, remember that it's not just the spectral energy distribution of a light source that matters, but the overall brightness. Sunlight is very bright, which is why we all use sunglasses. Have you ever been tempted to use sunglasses inside when using a computer or cell phone? Second, sunlight contains lots of energy in the blue, violet, and ultravoilet end of the spectrum. That's why sunlight is capable of causing photo-aging of the skin, sunburn, and skin cancer. This WIKI has a graph of the sun's spectral energy distribution. You'll see that its spectral energy doesn't start to tail off until about 470 nM. This article references a DOE report that indicates no danger to humans from LED lighting.
Musuems are using LED lights because they reduce potential damage because of significantly less heat. This other article gives a balanced view of the topic and notes that the use of filters can reduce or eliminate the possibility of old yellow pigments fading. It also points out that almost any light source has the potential to fade colors.

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Originally Posted by Roy123
This thread has become hyperbolic and alarmist. First, remember that it's not just the spectral energy distribution of a light source that matters, but the overall brightness. Sunlight is very bright, which is why we all use sunglasses. Have you ever been tempted to use sunglasses inside when using a computer or cell phone? Second, sunlight contains lots of energy in the blue, violet, and ultravoilet end of the spectrum. That's why sunlight is capable of causing photo-aging of the skin, sunburn, and skin cancer. This WIKI has a graph of the sun's spectral energy distribution. You'll see that its spectral energy doesn't start to tail off until about 470 nM. This article references a DOE report that indicates no danger to humans from LED lighting.
Musuems are using LED lights because they reduce potential damage because of significantly less heat. This other article gives a balanced view of the topic and notes that the use of filters can reduce or eliminate the possibility of old yellow pigments fading. It also points out that almost any light source has the potential to fade colors.

thumb very sensible.

To this I can only add there is an enormous difference between decent LEDs having a good colour spectrum and those the old/cheap harsh bluey things which are regrettably still around. Maintaining a sensible and comfortable brightness level without excessive contrast is common sense and if, like me, you are looking at a screen all day perhaps using some glasses that reduce blue light. If you have LEDs with a variable colour spectrum then matching that to the daylight for that time of day is a luxury, and also likely to help you sleep better. If the lighting looks comfortable and natural to you then it is likely to be good, if it doesn't it's likely not to be smirk

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