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#3181336 12/31/21 07:22 AM
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Good morning / afternoon / evening

Sorry to pose such a stupid question, but Im finding buying a new DP confusing for many reasons.

One point I would like to clarify is in relation to power in Watts.

As an example, on the Yamaha CLP 775:

42W+50W+50 multiplied by 2 = 284 Watts.

Is the correct?

So the Yamaha CLP 745:

50W+50W multiplied by 2 = 200 Watts

etc...etc...etc..

Rav


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Yep! In the reviews they generally state totals, whereas Yamaha specs always have the details and not the totals.

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Hello,

@Ravanelli, The totals are mainly marketing show-off, and are totally uninteresting to you as a player.

Also, the wattage doesn't tell you much about the *quality* of the sound you're getting. There are many factors at play there that are way more important than the wattage alone, not the least and not the easiest being your own tastes and preferences.

So, although that wattage shouldn't be too low (and 50W per channel for a main (often the low/mid) speaker is plenty enough in most personal use cases), it is impossible to choose your piano on that specification.

Do go and play, do listen carefully, and even consider how a piano in a store will sound rather different than once it has been placed in your favorite spot at home.

Hope this helps!

Cheers and happy decision making,

HZ

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2x (50+42) = 184

So the clp745 and clp775 are essentially the same in terms of wattage.

But since the speakers are different size and the sound would be split depending on frequency, it’s probably better to consider it as 2 x 50 watt speakers which as already mentioned is plenty.

I think comparing similar style pianos within a manufacturer, wattage might be a usable spec.

I would be wary about comparing across manufacturers.

And placement can have quite an influence on the perceived loudness of a speaker.

And some thing that is rarely touched on here is how a piano sounds to someone listening and not playing can be differrent.


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I’m not an audiophile, but the expression of power in watts for digital pianos is sorely lacking in detail: is it 50 watts, peak or continuous? Full frequency range or just at 1kHz? And how does that translate to actual SPL at the speakers? (And then, how is that measured?) and on and on…

All it means to me is a somewhat relative gauge of potential loudness for models within one particular brand.


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Picking up from some of the other comments here about how hard it is to compare, especially across different brands, is that wattage tells you almost nothing if you don't know the efficiency of the speakers. Even if measured the same way (which is already a big caveat right there), 25 watts into one speaker can be louder than 50 or even 100 watts into another, if that speaker is sufficiently more efficient.

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I had an FP50 which had a respectable amount of wattage for a slab. But the output was totally lacking in bass; and the elliptical speakers were pretty bad.
The preceding DGX650 was by comparison far superior. With 6W per channel.


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I think one of the above said that today they speak of peak power as a show off and I would be inclined to agree.
The old way was to use RMS of output, the rest being of no practical use. It depends on the resistance, if you read the 1.5 million threads on here about headphones, they all talk about the input impedance, this important as the user is interested in the output volume i.e. resistance of independent micro speakers. This should give a clue ...

I remember years ago working in a recording studio and in the mixing room were some Bose studio monitors that sounded rather tasty, on chatting about them the engineer spoke about them needing over 200 watts just to get the cones moving lol. They were nice but wow massive amount of power to drive them.

Also in my Marshal Stacks there is the option of 4 or 8 ohm (depending on plugging in method) to the cabinets to allowing larger volumes if this is your goal.

Acoustic Piano's are loud but not that loud, but surely the main object is to emulate the projection of a normally aspirated piano?
Most of the time and me included play (DP's) too low a volume which only ends up harming playing the instrument with finesse resulting in premature failure of keys and bad playing progress. CA 79 rules and at the correct output volume is more than enough to match an Acoustic.

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What boggles my mind is how can they advertise that the digital piano has 250 watts for example, but the power adapter it plugs into is only 60 watts lol?


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One way to manage that, and be more-or-less honest:

. . . The power adapter will handle 60 watts,

. . . the amp will handle 250 watts "peak power" (however that's computed)

. . . there's a _really big_ capacitor across the DC output of the power adapter,
. . . to handle that "peak power" on the rare occasions it's called for.

There's a lot of difference, also, in what you need for organ playing (where the amps and speakers may be called on for "peak power" for as long as the player holds down a key), and piano playing (where the peak-to-average ratio is fairly high, and "peak power" is never needed for long).


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Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
One way to manage that, and be more-or-less honest:

. . . The power adapter will handle 60 watts,

. . . the amp will handle 250 watts "peak power" (however that's computed)

. . . there's a _really big_ capacitor across the DC output of the power adapter,
. . . to handle that "peak power" on the rare occasions it's called for.

There's a lot of difference, also, in what you need for organ playing (where the amps and speakers may be called on for "peak power" for as long as the player holds down a key), and piano playing (where the peak-to-average ratio is fairly high, and "peak power" is never needed for long).

This has got interesting all of a sudden. Time for some testing, guys! Who'll be first?


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I am grateful for the detailed replies....

I am just interested in the manufactures specs when they say:


50w + 50w + 50w x2 which makes a total of 300w......

So the above example of the amp is 300w

If it was described:

30w + 30w the total is 60w (so its not doubled as in my OP example and the one in this post....

Rav


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there was the IHF vs RMS power. Then the PMPO happened. The IHF was supposed to indicate the capacity of the amplifier to handle peaks. Unfortunately, the marketing department (that one that torture the figures to tell whatever they want) made those figure totally pointless, especially the PMPO (they state a small boom box has 3000 PMPO - which in portuguese we say is "potência musical para otários", or "musical power for suckers")

One simply cannot trust these numbers mean ANYTHING these days, no matter what the source (Yamaha or otherwise). Keep in mind that to hear a sound twice as loud the power must be increased tenfold.

Another thing that is not told nowadays is the distortion at the rated power, and when it is, it is around 10% (harmonic distortion), meaning they are pushing the amplifier to its limits. Long long ago... they used to measure and disclose the intermodulation distortion. The harmonic distortion (less than 1% for the good amplifiers - the manufacturers didn't push it then - IOW they were less dishonest) added some color to the sound. The intermodulation distortion had to do with non-linearities and thus it added non related harmonics and made the sound unpleasant. Nowadays they do not bother measuring it, I think (maybe they still do with the high quality, very expensive hi-fi stuff).

Speakers will also produce distortion at high power. And the structure of the sound source (speakers or DP) as well the stuff on the room may vibrate, making all those Watts being of no use even ir they were real.

So, as Charles pointed out, most of the time the effective power is a maybe around a Watt, on occasion (e.g., when a bass enters or, in the case of the DP, a fff chord.) the power may rise significantly the peak power, if the amplifier can handle it.


Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
. . . the amp will handle 250 watts "peak power" (however that's computed)

. . . there's a _really big_ capacitor across the DC output of the power adapter,
. . . to handle that "peak power" on the rare occasions it's called for.

Last edited by EVC2017; 01/02/22 07:34 AM.

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There are two types of power measurement useful to a listener, or a radio operator transmitting - 'Continuous Average Power' and 'Peak Envelope Power'.

In spite of the multitude of articles on 'RMS' Power which assume a pure sine wave and is based on the square root of 2, it has no useful physical meaning for a complex waveform. It it the result of a mathematical formula and only equates to CAP when measuring Direct Current or a pure 50% duty Square Wave, neither of which produces a lovely musical sound.

The problem arises because voltage and current are not in phase in a speaker. They are in phase if measured across a purely resistive impedance (one with no reactive component).

PEP is very useful since it measures the instantaneous 'power' of a waveform and is useful for determining the 'overhead' of an amplifier, i.e., how much reserve does it have to faithfully reproduce a drum kick or a gong smash.

The plug rating of an amplifier shouldn't be confused with the average power or peak power rating. A one million watt radar pulse emitted by my airplane lasting one microsecond only has an average power rating of one watt.

And of course, non of this has any meaning unless speaker efficiency is considered.

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Originally Posted by TexasBear
What boggles my mind is how can they advertise that the digital piano has 250 watts for example, but the power adapter it plugs into is only 60 watts lol?
Power adapters are not specified in wattages, but I think you mean the rated power consumption of the piano is 60 watts. The answer is probably that amplifiers' power consumption is not generally rated at the maximum they can consume, but rather an estimate of "typical" power consumption (which, to reference a different aspect of the conversation here, is neither peak nor continuous). A common standard for that determination of an amplifier's power consumption is based on what's needed to deliver merely 1/8th the maximum (unclipped) power at 1 kHz. See: https://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/receiver-back-panel-power-ratings

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Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by TexasBear
What boggles my mind is how can they advertise that the digital piano has 250 watts for example, but the power adapter it plugs into is only 60 watts lol?
Power adapters are not specified in wattages, but I think you mean the rated power consumption of the piano is 60 watts. The answer is probably that amplifiers' power consumption is not generally rated at the maximum they can consume, but rather an estimate of "typical" power consumption (which, to reference a different aspect of the conversation here, is neither peak nor continuous). A common standard for that determination of an amplifier's power consumption is based on what's needed to deliver merely 1/8th the maximum (unclipped) power at 1 kHz. See: https://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/receiver-back-panel-power-ratings

So with a smaller rated instrument, one would be reasonably expected to run at nearer the maximum capability of the smaller amplifier set up. Therefore the rated power adaptor might be lower, but not by that much . . .


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Originally Posted by peterws
Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by TexasBear
What boggles my mind is how can they advertise that the digital piano has 250 watts for example, but the power adapter it plugs into is only 60 watts lol?
Power adapters are not specified in wattages, but I think you mean the rated power consumption of the piano is 60 watts. The answer is probably that amplifiers' power consumption is not generally rated at the maximum they can consume, but rather an estimate of "typical" power consumption (which, to reference a different aspect of the conversation here, is neither peak nor continuous). A common standard for that determination of an amplifier's power consumption is based on what's needed to deliver merely 1/8th the maximum (unclipped) power at 1 kHz. See: https://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/receiver-back-panel-power-ratings

So with a smaller rated instrument, one would be reasonably expected to run at nearer the maximum capability of the smaller amplifier set up. Therefore the rated power adaptor might be lower, but not by that much . . .
I'm not following that, I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to by the phrases "smaller rated instrument" or "smaller amplifier set up" or "rated power adaptor might be lower." Whenever you use the word "smaller" or "lower" in those phrases, what's missing for me is exactly what it is you're measuring.

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I am guessing here, but I assume that manufacturers are required by safety standards to provide a number, either watts, VA, or amperes that can be used to determine the maximum safe load for a given branch circuit from the CB panel. This number, for an incandescent light, would be continuous, for an electrical stove, not so much.

Using a rated power is unlikely to predict how loud your DP will sound. That's why Acoustic Piano dealers are smart and don't provide a rated power for their pianos.

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Quote
Power adapters are not specified in wattages

I would say they almost certainly are.

For example my 90 watt 24 volt 3.75 amp Roland fp-90x power supply, printed right on the label.

Sometimes you only see voltage and amperage which of course multiplied together is wattage.


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Originally Posted by Purdy
Quote
Power adapters are not specified in wattages

I would say they almost certainly are.

For example my 90 watt 24 volt 3.75 amp Roland fp-90x power supply, printed right on the label.

Sometimes you only see voltage and amperage which of course multiplied together is wattage.
Interesting, I've never seen wattage specified on the power adapters, though yes, of course, you can calculate it. There is still an important distinction, though, that on a power adapter, such a figure would tell you the maximum it it is rated to supply, whereas the power consumption figure on a keyboard would tell you what it typically draws.

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