Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Buying a Brand New Steinway S or M - Can I Negotiate?

Hi AJS,

Since you mentioned that you were going to audition some Kawai pianos, I would recommend that you try several Shigeru Kawai Grand Pianos too. They are rare but I think the Chicago Kawai dealer has some in inventory. Shigeru Kawai's are getting very favorable reviews around the world...

Best of luck with the piano of your choice.

Bear

AJS, you can always, always negotiate.
Your negotiating power lies in the fact that you are ready to buy something else (a used steinway, or a piano of a different make); if then the seller remains unflexible, it is he not want to sell, not you not being able to negotiate.....

Let the dealer feel the smell of the money and say to him what you would be ready to pay, IF you decide yourself for a Steinway. Whether he accepts or not is not your problem anymore, the sea is full of fishes and when you progress more in your quest you will see that the are many, many alternative to a steinway.

If you look a bit around the forum, you will also discover the fallacy of the "heirloom" argument, at least if you see this in monetary terms.

AJS, I almost forgot.
I suggest you to buy the Larry Fine's books, both the big one and the little one with the prices.

Among other things (it will give you a full panorama of the piano market) you will read, unloess I am mistaken, that steinway tend to go away at around 10% discount of price if you are a good negotiator, unless you are in NY where it would be more difficult.

Again, Fine's book will give you basic information about how a piano is done and work and about the piano producers whilst the price supplement will give you a clear, if approximate, idea of what price ranges and discount ranges are available in the market.

You will find a link on the right of this page to the book.

Hi all - it's Monday.

OK I'm amazed with the body of knowledge in this forum. Again - thank you all so much.

The piano I played MOST as a student - not my own, my instructor's - was a Mason & Hamlin.

I have played the other brands I mentioned - but the M&H was the brand I played most.

RonaldSteinway (Ronald) - was it Brian you mention?

I'm still considering new though - and in the Chicago area, has anyone had any experience with Kurt Saphir Pianos, and their willingness to negotiate on prices of grands (I'll try the A and AA).

Thanks all - and thank you for being honest, and yet so nice, too.

Whether or not dealers negotiate is dependent on what prices they quote from the get-go. Some dealers will quote very high to make it look like they are giving you a hefty discount in the negotiation process while others do not.

Arm yourself with pricing information prior to negotiation and then, if it matches or exceeds your expectations, go for it! Make sure your information is accurate, however!

Each salesperson will have their own approach, as mentioned. If you do not like their approach ask for the manager. Best of luck in your fascinating journey!

Also, try Craigslist. Because of the economy, if you're willing to wait a bit, you'll likely see some people selling some nice pianos at decent prices. It's more of a buyer's market.

If you must have a "new" piano, the folks at the Steinway store will typically have a couple of sales per year and One "event" at the Symphony Center in Chicago where Steinway brings in a load of pianos for a road show. They may or may not have preferential pricing at that time.

The vendor in Downers Grove is supposedly a jointly owned business - Schmidt Music and Jordan Kitts. They're relatively new to the Chciago area so I can't tell you too much more about them.

If you'd like I can PM you the name of my technician who is one of the two techs at Symphony Center and has worked for Steinway. He might be able to provide you some counsel on when and how to get your best deal locally.

Since you are on a budget, you should definitely consider a Steinway rebuild. In my opinion, and in the opinion of many other musicians who have posted on this forum, a Steinway rebuild will often perform better than a new Steinway--and at a fraction of the price.

Your issue between the S and M is much more than just a question of price: it might seem that six inches longer cannot make much difference, but because we are also talking about square inches of soundboard area, the difference is night and day. I have seen 5' 1" pianos that have such a small soundboard area that the lowest notes cannot be made correct because the soundboard cannot produce the depth required. While I have never seen this in a Steinway S, I have also seen very few Ss in my four decades of piano playing.

Put it this way: if you get a vintage rebuilt M or A, you will be getting a heck of a lot more piano for the money--and you can still expect future generations in your family to enjoy the piano--and enjoy it much more than a new S.

Please take a look at the other thread on the page below yours: "A Question for Pianists and Others":

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/22017.html

There you can see an extensive discussion of the merits of rebuilt Steinways, along with a great many websites where you can see and hear the rebuilds being played with high quality video and sound. I contributed a number of posts on that thread, and I hope you find them useful.

Consider this: taking a trip to a rebuilder will cost you some money initially, but it will be a fun and exciting trip, and it should save you many thousands of dollars after your purchase. Moreover, you will have a much better piano to pass along to many future generations in your family.

Also you can use the search function to find out how very many accomplished and amateur pianists on this forum have purchased Steinway rebuilds from reputable dealers, and have enjoyed them immensely.

Personally I think my rebuilt Steinway model A grand is clearly superior to any new Steinway A that I have heard.

Probably I should add that I am neither a tech nor a rep, just a pianist with his own opinions. Whatever you choose to do, good luck!

OK there's been a development...

Would any of you consider a Steinway M (5'7"), gently used at four months at Ravinia (here in Chicago). I played this piano and enjoyed the sound and feel of it.

Of course, the price has also been reduced, and is less than the cost of the S (5'1") - that's dealer price - not my own negotiated price.

Size wise, this would likely be the biggest piano I could afford - at least in the Steinway world.

Would any of you think that there is something to be said that the piano (the M), given its use at the Ravinia Festival, has already been tuned many times, and has been picked by artists to play. Steinway is treating it, warranty wise, as a new piano - all things included.

What do you guys think?

I'm visiting Kurt Saphir next, followed by PianoForte - I just did a little research on the Fazioli - and found that while it's out of my price range, I'd like to try one at PianoForte in Chicago.

I welcome everyone's thoughts.

Four months is barely a tick of the clock in the long, long life of a Steinway grand. This holds true even if those four months have been heavy use. If the piano was tuned frequently during those four months, all the better.

If you have played that particular piano and like it, and it has the warranty of a new piano, then you can buy it with confidence, in my opinion.

The strings on a new piano normally require about 12-15 months in your home to stretch before they finally settle down--assuming of course that the piano is tuned about every three months (some say every two months) during that time.

Also a piano action has a many moving parts that require about 12-15 months of normal home use before they loosen up and settle down to where they should be.

A piano is made primarily of wood, and wood is a natural product that expands and contracts in response to routine changes in temperature and humidity levels, so any piano requires time to adjust to the climactic conditions of its new owner's home.

For those reasons and others, it is physically impossible for a new piano to sound and perform up to its potential on the day it arrives in your home. It will necessarily sound better after it has been in your home for about 12-15 months, assuming that it is well cared for: away from direct sunlight or heat registers, fitted with a DammpChaser, tuned frequently, etc. Only after that 12-15 month "breaking-in period" is it possible for a new piano perform to its full potential.

Apparently the piano you are describing has had a breaking-in period for four months, with heavy use and frequent tunings. Although its wood will still need to adjust to your home, it seems likely that the piano will be, all things considered, better than a new one from the showroom floor.

As you have no doubt surmised, this means that a used piano normally represents a real value. A great piano, like any Steinway, ages very, very slowly. You know the old saw about how a new car loses value when you drive it off the lot, even though it is objectively the same car. This is much more true of high-quality, tier 1 pianos. As you can see by using the Piano World search function, most of the experienced people on this site agree that buying used gets you way more piano for your money.

Of course, I still suggest that you will be much happier with a larger instrument for less money if you go for a rebuild--but whatever you choose, I hope you get the piano of your dreams.

Be sure to post photographs on move-in day!

P. S. Since you expressed some interest in Mason and Hamlin, I should mention that I know several top-drawer piano tuners and rebuilders who are of the strong opinion that, currently, new Mason and Hamlins are better than new Hamburg Steinways, and much better than new New York Steinways. Personally I think any new Steinway or Mason and Hamlin will be a great piano, but I thought I should mention it anyway.

No, not Brian. I think Brian is older. The guy whom I talked about is not older than 25 years old.

Brian is an experience one.

Prospero I am surprised that tuners and rebuilders should draw a comparison bet ween Hamburg Steinways and M&H.

Hamburg Steinways are not especially common in the US. In the same way, M&H are very rare in Europe. Hence the opportunity for comparison is rare. And the opportunity to see a large enough sample of both to make a meaningful comparison would be very rare.

Did you in fact mean to say New York Steinway?

I have never had the opportunity to play a new or even recent M&H but I am told by friends who have that both the sound and feel is quite different to a Hamburg Steinway (with which I am quite familiar). If this is so, then the question of "better or worse" is surely better expressed only in relation to build and finish quaility, as the sound aspect is highly subjective.

Kind regards

Adrian

AJS 0 my take on the question you pose is that I would have no hesitation in buying a nearly new Steinway if I liked it and the price was right. I would in fact prefer to buy used rather than new, especially given that Steinway is providing a full warranty.

I have quite a few hours on Faziolis and I suspect that you will find them very different to the Steinways in both sound and touch. More crystalline. Very fast and easy action. Beautifully finished pianos.

I am sure you will enjoy the shopping experience.

Kind regards
Adrian

Absolutely, for all the reasons Prospero explained. This could be a great opportunity to get a Steinway you like, and one that has already received a fair amount of presumably excellent prep, at a favorable price. I personally would not recommend going with an S due to the short size factor.

Totally agree with Prospero on the gently-used Steinways. When I bought my 2006 O earlier this year, I got a price break because it was a used piano. Turned out it was used because it just returned from some photo shoots and a house-staging gig! So I really got a "new" Steinway with a very nice discount! Really love the sound.

AJS, buy what you LOVE because you are the one that will live with it for a very long time and you want to be happy with your purchase, whatever you end up buying.

Thanks for your comments.

Well, as I have said before on this forum, the tuners and rebuilders in question know much more about piano manufacture than I do, and I do not fully understand why they think new Masons are so great. They think nowadays Masons are made with superior techniques and craftsmanship.

In answer to your question: yes, these tuners and rebuilders are familiar with Masons, NY Steinways, and Hamburg Steinways, partly because of their travel, and partly because of what they see in their shops. New Hamburg Steinways are rare in the USA but not impossible to find: right now, for example, a new Hamburg is sitting on the showroom floor at Fields piano in Santa Ana, CA (unless it has sold).

Perhaps I should mention that (in my experience) the better the piano tuner, the more likely he is to prefer Masons over Steinways. Great tuners hear things the rest of us miss, and I often wonder what they hear in Masons.

Personally I love Steinways, though I must add that in over forty years of piano playing, the single best piano I have ever played is a Mason and Hamlin: a vintage CC, to be exact--one of only about 250 they made back then. You can see it by scrolling down the Grand Piano Inventory on this website:

http://www.classicpianos.com/

An acquiantance of mine who is an orchestra conductor played this vintage CC and commented, "It is not really a piano. It is an orchestra." I heartily agreed.

That piano provokes amazing comments. An accomplished pianist told me that when he played that CC, his pleasure was so intense that he felt guilty, "as if he were cheating on his wife."

Aside from that one very rare exception, however, I almost always prefer Steinways over Masons.

Perhaps the main reason why I love Steinways is my preferred method of practice: I love to put a great interpretation on the CD player and play along with it. Since those performances are on Steinways, my method works better with a Steinway than any other brand.

No doubt I also love Steinways in part because I played so many of them (in competition) back in my formative years as a tiny tot.

It is more than that, though. I love the Steinway scale designs, the touch, the enormous color palette, the Steinway sound.

Vintage Steinways have a particularly fabulous resonance, in my opinion. When I sit in front of my vintage Steinway A and open the lid fully, it feels and sounds as if I am in a great canyon or Cathedral with magnificent acoustics. To my ears and hands, vintage Steinways--in good condition--are analogous to Stradivarius violins.

I know some people disagree with me about that, but I do not understand what they are hearing. Most advanced pianists with whom I am acquainted agree that the better vintage Steinway rebuilds produce celestial tones. If I go to heaven, I expect to see delivery men bringing my vintage Steinway A to my new address.

As you might guess, I was unsurprised when Vladimir Horowitz started to play a 1910 vintage Steinway D in the middle of his career. Of course this did not make Steinway happy. Obviously they want their artists to play new instruments, and who can blame them?

Though I love Steinways, I am also glad many pianists prefer other brands.

The sounds of Fazioli, Bosie, and other top-quality brands enhance and enrich the world of piano music. I revel in the variety. I love the Steinway sound best, but I also love to hear other great pianos with their beautiful and interesting sounds. Lately I have taken a real liking to the Fazioli sound, probably because I have always liked Xylophones.

Hi Prospero -funny post about the great pleasure of playing the CC! Better the piano than a lot of other things that one's husband's can be doing...

Maybe you are on the wrong planet.

Why not make the most of your limited funds, and keep shopping.

Wow, I've never tried to buy a new piano, but I am stunned at how opaque the piano market is. It seems there's practically no direct communication between the factory and potential buyers in Steinway's case; there's a lot of miscommunication and misinformation, not to say mystery behind the whole thing.

You know what I would do? I'd call the factory and not give up until I've talked to the VP of sales for your area or the continent or whatever and get the facts - or at least the true stated company policy. The executives may not be used to dealing directly with the public, but part of there job is (if they are true executives) to see that policies are clearly stated or if there's a problem at the dealer level in terms of pricing the product.

In fact, if they are worth anything as executives they NEED to and will WANT to know when these questions come up. If they brush you off send them a nice letter explaining why you're taking your business elsewhere and how you will be advising others to broaden their search for a new piano.

Or, you just tell the dealer how much you're willing to pay and tell him it's non-negotiable. If he won't budge walk toward the door. If you can, bring a couple people with you that you know who might also be interested in looking at new pianos so if he won't bargain you can all walk to the door together.

Good grief.

Very true,if theres a will theres a way If done right I would probably agree with that. The problem is, that piano will outlast you and your future heirs being restored over and over and over kinda like the Ever..dy battery.Many don't realize,many modern pianos sealed in Polyester are not made to be refinished decades later in that their veneers are paper back and very thin. I don't know any piano movers that are willing to go that far with the gas prices in that it would probably be a one way move and the last piano they would ever deliver. Hopefully there would be a qualified tech ...uh wherever you're going and hopefully not a need for a humidifier

Well, truer words were never spoken regarding opaque pricing practices in the piano market but, ironically, this example doesn't actually illustrate the point. I don't understand what the problem is in this case. The complaint about the dealer seems to be that the price tag on the piano is actually the price of the piano! The dealer won't negotiate. What's opague about that? That's how most goods are sold in a large and modern economy. What exactly would you expect a Steinway executive to do in response to this complaint?

I actually don't believe that Steinway dealers won't negotiate at all but I do think there isn't much wiggle room, sometimes none at all. In my opinion, this is preferable to the usual pricing nonsense where tagged prices are 40% or more above market or there are no price tags at all. Now, that is opaque!