2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
93 members (36251, An Old Square, anotherscott, ajf0016, 8ude, AlphaBravoCharlie, Animisha, 27 invisible), 846 guests, and 516 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
#3164437 10/16/21 06:59 AM
Joined: Jun 2021
Posts: 51
D
Full Member
OP Online Content
Full Member
D
Joined: Jun 2021
Posts: 51
In some books I read that when you practice 2-5-1s you should play root notes in the LH and 7-3s in the RH.
Wouldn't it be better if you started practicing with full chords and then practice shell voicings?
Should we not consider shell voicings as step 2 in the learning process?
My teacher says that it is easy to just take away notes from full chords and play triads or jazz shell voicing after having played full seventh chords. In this way I can see how everything connect.

Last edited by Dantheboogieguy; 10/16/21 07:08 AM.

we need boogie woogie and Mozart. We need Mozart playing boogie woogie.
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,628
Silver Subscriber
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
Silver Subscriber
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,628
What do you mean by full chord ? You can add the 5th to the left hand if you want but according to jazz players the fifth can be omit and replace with a 9th.

Here's an exercise I got from a book. 2 5 1 in all keys. IIm7 - R 7 3 5 , V9 - R 3 7 9 and Imaj7 - R 7 3 5.



“To send light into the darkness of men’s hearts - such is the duty of the artist.”
- Robert Schumann

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 298
J
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
J
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 298
I was taught to play piano by a performer, non classical. He taught me to play ii V I using 7th chords. I learned Dm7 G7 C9 first and then little by little I was to learn the same in all keys. I never did learn the pattern in all keys. I was not interested in jazz at the time so that is as far as we went with the ii V I pattern. I really do not see a difference in which one learns first. What I think is important is that you learn the pattern using both 7th chords and shells in all keys.

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 290
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 290
The very first step is to learn all 60 root position seventh chords: major 7, dominant 7, minor 7, minor 7b5 and diminished 7.

I have a free lesson on this topic here:

https://www.jazzpianoonline.com/pages/chords-voicings#five-essential-seventh-chords

Once you have these voicings firmly in your head and hands you can move on to learning how to play them in voicings. (Voicing a chord refers to adding, subtracting and distributing notes to modify a basic chord sound).

The shell voicings that you mention are root based voicings, typically played in the left hand when playing solo piano and most often composed of the root plus the 3rd, or the 5th, or the 7th or the 10th.

Shell voicings are combined with guide tones (3 and 7) played in the right hand under the melody note (whether written or improvised). These two voicing techniques are the basis for the spread voicing technique which is the foundation of playing solo jazz piano.

I have a lesson (requires paid subscription) on spread voicings here:

https://www.jazzpianoonline.com/pages/chords-voicings#solo-jazz-piano

In my teaching, I introduce rootless voicings with added tension (the name says it all, voicings without roots but with added tensions, 9, 11 and 13, aka left hand voicings) after the student masters the basic 60 root position seventh chords. The discussion of shell voicings and spread voicings follows rootless voicings.

So to answer your question, there is nothing wrong with introducing shell voicings, guide tones and solo piano playing after the student masters the basic 60 root position chords.


Bill
bill@jazzpianoonline.com
www.JazzPianoOnline.com
Online Jazz Piano Lessons
Yamaha C7 Disklavier DC7ENSPRO
Joined: Apr 2021
Posts: 3
P
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
P
Joined: Apr 2021
Posts: 3
Ears or formulas or both? WHICH jazz pianists used shell voicings in which styles and why? Why, as in, what’s the musical advantage in using them? What kind of sound (or style) do they exemplify? Bud Powell and bebop are part of the answer.

Another question is in jazz repertoire and history what kind of left-hand voicings preceded shell voicings? A lot of answers and information there as well.

Why is all that extra information, which one acquires by ear, helpful? Because one acquires it by listening to recordings of great pianists and that, in turn helps us to know what’s what and why.

Or, more simply, shell voicings? Listen to Bud Powell ….

Joined: Jun 2021
Posts: 51
D
Full Member
OP Online Content
Full Member
D
Joined: Jun 2021
Posts: 51
I find that the 1-3-7 is not enough. Something is missing. Do professional cats play like that?
I am actually not that good at this at all. I tried to play 3-7 with a bassist who played the root. It sounded weird. We only played the accompaniment (I think it was Autumn Leaves or a 12 bar blues with 2-5-1s added to the progression). It sounded weird.
What is this all about?

Last edited by Dantheboogieguy; 10/18/21 05:34 AM.

we need boogie woogie and Mozart. We need Mozart playing boogie woogie.
Joined: Jun 2021
Posts: 51
D
Full Member
OP Online Content
Full Member
D
Joined: Jun 2021
Posts: 51
Also, I find that 3-7s in the RH are actually harder to play than 1-3-5-7s in the RH.


we need boogie woogie and Mozart. We need Mozart playing boogie woogie.
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 767
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 767
Hi

There's nothing wrong with playing chords any way you wish really. It all depends on context. If you're playing swinging Jazz Piano in a trio (with bass and drums) the 3-7 combination is great for the LH. At it's simplest level, say a blues in C you can play:

E Bb on the C chord and then
Eb A on the F chord

This movement falls under your fingers easily and you'll hear a lot of Jazz Pianists do this. Check Oscar Peterson as an example. He had one of the best LHs ever but sometimes he'd just play a simple 3-7 change in his LH.

Of course if you're playing solo or you need a fuller sound the 3-7 on it's own is a little light.

I'd recommend doing as Bill suggested. Learn the structures of the important 7th chords then once you can voice those without thinking about it, you can pick and choose the voicings you like and start adding extensions.

In the end, assuming you're not a professional (and don't have people paying to listen to you), if you like the sound a chord makes, that is all that matters. Other people can say this is right and that is wrong, but the actual sound a chord makes is subjective.

Cheers


Simon

Vox Continental 73
Casio PX-S3000
Pearl Midtown Drums








Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,570
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,570
Shells in the left hand 1-7 or 1-3 are perhaps the most practical basic foundation for solo jazz piano, IMO. I use them half the time.


Harry Likas was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's The Jazz Theory Book and helped develop The Jazz Piano Book. Studied with Mark Levine 1985-89 and Barry Harris 1995-99
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 767
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 767
Hi

Yes, completely agree RinTin.

As an example Dan, if you're playing the change Am7 to D7.
In the LH you play the 1-7 shell as A G then play the 1-3 shell D F#.
Because the D F# shell is within the A G it's a very easy change (you don't have to move your hand).

Cheers


Simon

Vox Continental 73
Casio PX-S3000
Pearl Midtown Drums








Joined: May 2014
Posts: 14
P
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
P
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 14
Always start with a complete understanding of how the dominant 7 chord works and many things will follow.
Here's a blog I'm doing on the subject.
https://www.learnjazzpianoonline.com/blog/the-dominant-7-chord-in-jazz/
[img]https://www.learnjazzpianoonline.com/blog/the-dominant-7-chord-in-jazz/[/img]


Link Copied to Clipboard
What's Hot!!
Pianos - Organs - & Keyboards, Oh My!
My first professionally recorded piece
---------------------
Visit Maine, Meet Mr. Piano World
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Casiotone & Sustain Pedal - Sustain too long
by Charline - 12/08/21 11:23 AM
HELP! 1965 Mason and Hamlin BB
by cschuh1 - 12/08/21 10:15 AM
A Steinway that sounds like a Bechstein?
by cygnusdei - 12/08/21 09:55 AM
Piano height
by Dantheboogieguy - 12/08/21 07:57 AM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics210,446
Posts3,151,460
Members103,556
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5