2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad) SWEETWATER Cyber Week Deals
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
70 members (c++, An Old Square, accordeur, BravoRomeo, 36251, anotherscott, 19 invisible), 619 guests, and 496 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 233 of 234 1 2 231 232 233 234
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,592
D
David B Online Content OP
1000 Post Club Member
OP Online Content
1000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,592
Originally Posted by EssBrace
Mine arrived today. First impressions very good.

Congrats. Pics?

Since Tyrone left, we don't have an "official" tally of n1X owners anymore.

God Bless,
David


Yamaha AdvantGrand N1X
Duane Shinn - 52 Week Crash Course - Completed
Duane Shinn - Praise and Gospel Course - In Progress
Greg Howlett - Inspirational Improvisation - In Progress
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 14,439
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 14,439
@EssBrace: Don't forget to post in the Prices Paid thread!

Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 50
O
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
O
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 50
@Cybergene

Hi,

I need advice :

SH2 silent system :
-> Hammer sensors (2 position)
-> Continuous Key sensors (that allow damper position and good Symp. resonance when damper are lifted silently -> NV10s can't.....)
(Like Yamaha N1X, N3X...)

but

SC2 silent system :
only -> Continuous Key sensors

SC2 doesn't have Hammer sensors : what's the difference in midi behaviour to use for example a GB1K-SC2 with VST/Pianoteq or a GC1-SH2 with VST...

SH2 have better midi resolution ? and SC2 without second hammer sensors ?

your opinion ?

Because i hesitate between an YAMAHA GB1K-SC2 and a YAMAHA N1X.... (or an C1X TA2)

Regards,

Olivier F.

Last edited by owfrappier; 09/19/21 05:54 AM.

O.F : Real GRAND Piano Schimmel / Roland HP 603 with Pianoteq 7.4.2 or Gar. CFX lite/ and perhaps soon an N1X or GC1/C1X SH2-TA2....

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 3,564
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 3,564
On the SH2, the continuous sensor measure the velocity and the hammer sensor filters notes that should be stroke.

If you repeat a note without rearming the escapement, the key will be too light and the resulting note would have a too high velocity. It would be better not to send the note to the speakers (an acoustic piano would be silent too) This is an admitted issue of the NU1X which has no hammer sensor. (Admitted means a paragraph about it is written in the troubleshooting section of the user manual).

Last edited by Frédéric L; 09/19/21 06:06 AM.

http://www.sinerj.org/
http://humeur-synthe.sinerj.org/
Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,267
7000 Post Club Member
Offline
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,267
Having hammer sensors in addition to the key sensors is always better. As Fréderic explains, it will prevent generation of false-strikes which is a problem of NU1X and is the reason for the infamous loud note issue.

HOWEVER!

The problem with the NU1X is certainly the upright action that requires for the keys to be almost fully released before being pressed again. The sensor logic on the NU1X is made so that it won't generate a strike until you release the key *almost* fully. And here comes the problem: this threshold (where exactly is ALMOST) is something that depends on the regulation and the actual hammer butt, felt, etc. And so there are minute discrepancies that occur and the logic would think the hammer has been "rearmed" whereas it's not in reality.

On a grand piano action you only need to release the key 1mm to reengage the jack under the knuckle and so the same key sensor logic has more tolerance to assume that threshold. In the worst case it can be set above the actual threshold and thus the opposite issue can happen: you have released the key very slightly until the hammer is reengaged and you press it again but the sensor logic thinks it hasn't been released and would produce no sound. Well, it's possible that the internal logic would assume "reengage" before the actual thing happened and that would lead to sound, however if that's the case it will be a faint sound since you can't throw the key too strongly just a millimeter from the bottom to generate a sudden loud note as on a NU1X.

Not sure if I was clear, but in other words I think a key-only sensor system would work much better on a grand piano action than on an upright piano action. While it's still better to have hammer sensors too, the difference won't be as huge. After all, you will be purchasing a silent piano to use it as a regular piano and occasionally for the silent function, so I wouldn't be too worried.


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 50
O
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
O
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 50
Hi ,


Thanks to Frederic L and Cybergene smile

clear explanations smile


O.F : Real GRAND Piano Schimmel / Roland HP 603 with Pianoteq 7.4.2 or Gar. CFX lite/ and perhaps soon an N1X or GC1/C1X SH2-TA2....

Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 50
O
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
O
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 50
hi,

and keys with ivorite vs. acrylic ?

N3X : ivorite
N1X/G1BK : Acrylic ?

it's important ?

opinion ?

Last edited by owfrappier; 09/19/21 07:33 AM.

O.F : Real GRAND Piano Schimmel / Roland HP 603 with Pianoteq 7.4.2 or Gar. CFX lite/ and perhaps soon an N1X or GC1/C1X SH2-TA2....

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 3,564
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 3,564
I am very happy with the acrylic keys of my N1X… I don’t feel the need to upgrade it (hopefully, the N3X is quite more expensive and requires more surface of my piano room.


http://www.sinerj.org/
http://humeur-synthe.sinerj.org/
Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 50
O
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
O
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 50
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
I am very happy with the acrylic keys of my N1X… I don’t feel the need to upgrade it (hopefully, the N3X is quite more expensive and requires more surface of my piano room.


Hi Fréderic,

Thanks.

Where did you bought your N1X in France ?

Did you need regulation after purchase ?

I live on France too. smile


O.F : Real GRAND Piano Schimmel / Roland HP 603 with Pianoteq 7.4.2 or Gar. CFX lite/ and perhaps soon an N1X or GC1/C1X SH2-TA2....

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 3,564
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 3,564
I have bought it in Piano Hanlet a shop which sells mainly acoustic pianos. The pianos was shipped and mounted by professional piano movers.

I didn’t need regulation. It was perfect as soon as I switched it on and played it.


http://www.sinerj.org/
http://humeur-synthe.sinerj.org/
Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Joined: Jul 2021
Posts: 7
H
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
H
Joined: Jul 2021
Posts: 7
Hello all - It's been a couple months since I first posted here. I have an N1X that arrived at the end of June and developed keys that had slow response (eventually with one key that would get stuck down completely). The dealer promised me that Yamaha would send out a technician to do some regulation, and that finally happened a couple weeks ago. The various delays involved were a bit annoying, and some were unavoidable. (By the time I actually was put in touch with the technician, it was the beginning of the academic year, and he was booked up servicing a lot of pianos for colleges/universities.)

Anyhow, the technician was quite knowledgeable, has a lot of experience servicing Yamaha hybrids, and he told me apparently Yamaha sent him personally because he's kind of the regional expert on servicing these kinds of hybrid instruments. So I was glad to wait until someone could come who would really answer all my questions. And I'm grateful to Yamaha for covering this under warranty.

The first thing I'll say is that some of the replies to my previous comments here had wondered about the need for regulation and whether that should be required by the dealer when setting up a purchase and delivery. I can give you two data points: my dealer, when I was talking on the phone about my issue, said it was rather uncommon for US dealers to regulate these hybrid instruments before delivery, and he knew of only one dealer that did so normally as standard procedure. The technician who showed up, however, implied that he thought it should definitely be done, just like any other new acoustic piano would be tweaked immediately before delivery or after. He said that a local piano dealer he worked at for several years always did that with the previous generation of Yamaha hybrids, and he assumes they are still doing it.

Given my experience, I think it's not only reasonable but a good idea to ask the dealer if they have examined the action before delivery.

I don't remember all the specifics of what the technician did. The first thing he noticed is that all the bushings appeared too tight, so he loosened them across the keyboard. That fixed the stuck key issue and smoothed out the playing quite a bit. But many keys still had sluggish responsiveness, particularly in the middle of the keyboard. He said there was another issue where he made an adjustment across almost all of the keys to loosen the action and improve the speed keys returned back up. I'm sorry I don't remember the details, but this too (like the bushings) seemed like something that he really thought needed to be done as normal regulation of the instruments. He said a majority of the keys were not responding the way he'd normally expect them to.

Beyond that, I was still seeing some unevenness that mostly showed up with rapid repetition or doing fast trills. Again, there would be a sort of "skipped" note sometimes, a blank key depress that would randomly happen in the middle of a trill. He tweaked a few other things on maybe a dozen keys or more near the middle of the keyboard, and that helped most of these issues.

I asked him about the needs for maintenance on the instrument in general, and he said he knew a lot of these instruments were owned in my region, but he very rarely gets called for service. I don't know that I should share all of the details he told me (as I think he gave me more info than he typically would discuss), but the impression he gave me was that these are generally very reliable instruments. I think he said he only had one other call he did on an N1X, where he loosened the bushings. However, he said there probably would be a need for regulation depending on how much play the instrument received and the demands of the player in maybe 5-10 years.

All of that was good news. And the instrument does play a lot more smoothly. Aside from the issues, the action had also felt a little "tight" to me and now is much more comfortable.

However, I have to admit that I'm still occasionally surprised by "blank key presses," mostly occurring during fast trills. He did discuss with me that there are limitations to the sensors on the N1X, specifically that he himself has noticed on these instruments that if one doesn't lift a finger high enough before depressing again, sometimes there can be this sort of "misfire" where the note doesn't sound. He made an analogy to the responsiveness of an upright as compared to a full acoustic grand piano, though I don't recall this particular problem happening before in this manner with me on actual upright pianos (even ones not in the best of shape). I suppose it's possible that I'm playing differently because of the overall feel of the grand action, so I'm not lifting fingers as high sometimes as I might on a crappy upright or something -- but it's still a surprise to me when these "misfires" happen. These aren't always complete "blank presses" with no sound, but sometimes significantly reduced volume (which is why I'm calling them "misfires"). During fast trills, there's also an occasional sensation of a sluggishness in a key responding, which just feels weird, though again these tend to be coupled with the blank press/misfire issue. And once in a while, it seems to happen randomly even in slow passages (not fast trills or repetition), often during a repetition of a note where I assume I haven't lifted my finger high enough. Still, it's not always just like the key fails to sound -- sometimes it actually appears to FEEL different, i.e., sluggish.

Thankfully, these issues are quite infrequent now. I haven't had an opportunity to go and play a variety of actual acoustic pianos (including uprights) for comparison in the past couple weeks, just to see if maybe I'm overreacting or oversensitive now. I thought I was being oversensitive after the technician adjusted the bushings and I still felt something "off," but then when I pointed it out to him, he clearly noticed the issue too and did further tweaks.

One thing that did concern me a bit was a remark the technician made right before leaving. Since he had spent a long time (more than a couple hours) at my place, he said I should let him know if I have further questions or issues, but he'd have to have a conversation with Yamaha about authorizing (which I assume he meant paying for) further tweaks. I understand that, but he also said that this really was an instrument with an "entry level" action. He said this on the way out, and I didn't clarify further. Earlier, I asked him to compare it to the actions of other Yamaha acoustic instruments, like specific baby grand models or whatever, and he said it really wasn't comparable as it was redesigned and tweaked so much with the sensors and electronics.

If I have to train myself to lift my fingers a bit higher (am I doing Hanon now?) just to avoid these occasional blank key presses/misfires/sluggishness, I'll probably get used to it. But I really feel like this is qualitatively different from technical issues I've felt on acoustic pianos in the past. I'm certainly willing to accept that my technique is subpar, but these misfires FEEL different from anything I can remember sensing on acoustic instruments. For that reason, I'm still questioning my decision to buy this instrument. The technician stressed that it really won't respond like a large concert grand (and that isn't necessarily a reasonable expectation), but I don't think that's the standard I'm asking for. I'm just asking for an instrument that responds like a somewhat decent acoustic piano.

Still, all the other features of the instrument are great. And the action does feel really great 99.9% of the time. I love how responsive it is and how much expression I can get out of it compared to other electronic keyboards I've played over the years. I love volume control and ability to interact electronically to control sounds, tuning, using virtual instruments (though I haven't set that up yet), easy recording, etc. And I love that it's much lighter and movable compared to the weight of even most uprights.

But there's still a strangeness to the response of the action that happens every so often. And the remaining issues are so random and happen so infrequently that it was difficult to tell the technician even where to look -- but they just feel WEIRD. Maybe it's my particular instrument and something about its regulation. But I'm going to have to wait and see after 6 months or a year about whether I've adjusted or these things are still annoying me.

Anyhow, that's the update. Sorry for the length, but I wanted to give as much detail as possible. I hope it's helpful to some. Based on my own experience, I'd definitely recommend trying one of these instruments at a dealer for an extended time (not just playing for a few minutes) to get a sense of whether the action feels right to you. And I would recommend talking to your dealer and seeing if they provide the same sort of service for tweaking regulation that they'd do for a new acoustic piano. My issues may have been exacerbated because my instrument shipped from a hot, dry climate to a very humid one this past summer, but -- as I noted -- the technician was also surprised by some of the issues that he had to adjust across many keys of the instrument.

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,420
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,420
Great post, thanks for taking the time to include all the details.

I have an N1X for several months now and just love it. It is certainly not perfect and I do on occasion have note that don't come out as if the key doesn't want to depress fully. I can't say this with certainty but I really feel that it is related to humidity. Sometimes the problem happens more often and I do have a dehumidifier that I make sure that I run to keep a fairly stable climate.

I feel that when it is sufficiently dry in the air, this problem happens much less often or not at all. When it is really humid it could happen frequently.

It would be nice to hear if others have had a similar experience or if I'm just imagining this. Eventually I will contact the dealer to have them send someone out to check on it but it's really not been so bad and I'm taking more time to evaluate it before I do that.

Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 352
J
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
J
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 352
Originally Posted by Pathbreaker
Great post, thanks for taking the time to include all the details.

I have an N1X for several months now and just love it. It is certainly not perfect and I do on occasion have note that don't come out as if the key doesn't want to depress fully. I can't say this with certainty but I really feel that it is related to humidity. Sometimes the problem happens more often and I do have a dehumidifier that I make sure that I run to keep a fairly stable climate.

I feel that when it is sufficiently dry in the air, this problem happens much less often or not at all. When it is really humid it could happen frequently.

It would be nice to hear if others have had a similar experience or if I'm just imagining this. Eventually I will contact the dealer to have them send someone out to check on it but it's really not been so bad and I'm taking more time to evaluate it before I do that.

This is a fairly common problem with acoustic piano actions in humid climate. It is also common with new actions that hasn't been fully braked in and regulated. It is totally fixable but you should contact your dealer, as long as your humidity is in within reasonable limits it should be covered by the guarantee.


"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein
Joined: Oct 2021
Posts: 2
A
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
A
Joined: Oct 2021
Posts: 2
Greatly appreciate everyone who has contributed to this thread - new N1X arriving Tuesday!

I already posted in Prices Paid (last one at the distributor potentially for a long time) and will post more here.

Hoping the action will be in good shape but also good to hear can be handled well via warranty.

Joined: Sep 2021
Posts: 11
F
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
F
Joined: Sep 2021
Posts: 11
Hi everyone,

I got my N1X today! Smoking hot! Literally. It caught on fire or something, smoked up the entire room, I think some electrical socket issue...

Good news is that it's so robust that it still works, and all the speakers too (how?)!
Technician coming Monday to check it.

Very nice otherwise.. besides the smoke issue wink

Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 1,009
H
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
H
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 1,009
Hello,

Originally Posted by Foreseer
Hi everyone,

I got my N1X today! Smoking hot! Literally. It caught on fire or something, smoked up the entire room, I think some electrical socket issue...

Good news is that it's so robust that it still works, and all the speakers too (how?)!
Technician coming Monday to check it.

Very nice otherwise.. besides the smoke issue wink

Wow, what a scare that must have been!! I hope it easily checks out and then is 100% Ok.

After that, let us know your non-smoking experiences with your new instrument.

Cheers and happy firefighting,

HZ

Joined: Sep 2021
Posts: 11
F
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
F
Joined: Sep 2021
Posts: 11
First impressions, coming from Kawai CA-99:

Significantly better action (night and day, it's incomparably better); significantly nicer sound, although the bosendorfer seems to output stereo sound only on one side of my phones..
I really like the look also. The interface was easier with the Kawai. However I appreciate the lack of features. I never used those 100 voices anyways or however many they ship, rather few but we'll polished..

So I like it so far!

Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 114
M
Full Member
Online Content
Full Member
M
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 114
Can you also make and post a picture showing how all those optical fibers are terminated, ie. how they get fed into the electronics?


HW: MP11SE, Touche SE (+Arturia Keylab Ess. 88, Akai MPK249, in reserve: GEM Promega 3)
SW: Garritan CFX, Ravenscroft 275, Modern U, Noire, Halion 6, Acousticsamples B5
Pics: https://imgur.com/a/GZgdFm3
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 114
M
Full Member
Online Content
Full Member
M
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 114
Any NV10/AvantGrand/Lachnit MK owners ever checked the MIDI velocity consistency across keys and compared that to some contact rubber based product?

I'd be highly interested in the results. (I have a Win64-VST plugin that displays velocity delta for simultaneously pressed keys - just tell me if interested, for Mac you'd have to compile it yourself)

One method could be to press two adjacent (white) keys with two fingers acting as a single entity. I'm not sure how reliable that method is, but it should still be useful if it turns out that the method produces better results on optical sensor devices.

BTW: is there any research that has looked at this, esp. at how reliable contact rubber-based systems are in practice? My first personal experiences/measurements show pretty stark deviations on the order of +/- 8...12 velocity steps.

Last edited by Marc345; 11/18/21 01:21 PM.

HW: MP11SE, Touche SE (+Arturia Keylab Ess. 88, Akai MPK249, in reserve: GEM Promega 3)
SW: Garritan CFX, Ravenscroft 275, Modern U, Noire, Halion 6, Acousticsamples B5
Pics: https://imgur.com/a/GZgdFm3
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 5,744
G
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 5,744
I've done this with a few keys on the NV-10 and they're usually within 1-2 values of 127.

But more importantly is whether they keys feel consistent and linear while playing. I don't think it's so important (or within the tolerances of the two-keys test) that the values be SO close together, as long as you don't notice any louder or softer notes as you play.

I also don't think you'd notice much difference between the optical and rubber sensors using this test. Optical sensors allow for velocity sensing without incurring extra friction/loss from the rubber contact. But if you're striking two keys on a rubber sensors, you'll likely still get similar velocities, that's not what the difference is about.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Page 233 of 234 1 2 231 232 233 234

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
What's Hot!!
Pianos - Organs - & Keyboards, Oh My!
My first professionally recorded piece
---------------------
Visit Maine, Meet Mr. Piano World
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Cateen plays I Got Rhythm
by pianoloverus - 12/02/21 04:38 PM
Cateen plays I Got Rhythm
by pianoloverus - 12/02/21 03:44 PM
My tech knows I am OCD
by RobAC - 12/02/21 02:09 PM
A little OT - a Thanksgiving Day piano float
by Rich Galassini - 12/02/21 01:50 PM
Preventing noise transmission
by happyhacker - 12/02/21 01:35 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics210,354
Posts3,150,268
Members103,492
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5