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Originally Posted by Jonky Ponky
I recently moved from an expensive arranger keyboard (Korg Pa3x) to a Yamaha P121 and wanted to keep using my large number of midi files with the new setup.
I solved the problem by using two apps on my iPhone which connects to the Yamaha P121 which sends midi and receives digital audio back to the piano.
The first app is "Sweet Midi Player" which will not only play midi files but also has a built in mixer to swap, mute, change volume of instruments etc, but also displays lyrics to midis with lyrics/karaoke files.
The default GM set of instruments is only mediocre but you can use your own GM set (like Roland sound canvas or even a free set I have compiled - available here https://sites.google.com/site/soundfonts4u/
You can play along to the midis with the Yamaha's internal sounds or with another app (like bs-16i that allows you to play soundfonts).
I'm very happy with this set up - it only requires one USB cable and the Apple CCK for everything to work - including audio back to the Yamaha's speakers or headphones.

This is probably the best way, but it needs to be tried first. My attempts to connect the keyboard of a CLP 820 to a psr630 were unsucessful. They both had MIDI but were not compatible I was told by the piano guy in the shop.
You might find the DGX 670 useful, but others have said it has the facilities of much cheaper psrs than yours. I guess for the outlay, you'd expect that.


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Originally Posted by Jonky Ponky
I recently moved from an expensive arranger keyboard (Korg Pa3x) to a Yamaha P121 and wanted to keep using my large number of midi files with the new setup.
I solved the problem by using two apps on my iPhone which connects to the Yamaha P121 which sends midi and receives digital audio back to the piano.
The first app is "Sweet Midi Player" which will not only play midi files but also has a built in mixer to swap, mute, change volume of instruments etc, but also displays lyrics to midis with lyrics/karaoke files.
The default GM set of instruments is only mediocre but you can use your own GM set (like Roland sound canvas or even a free set I have compiled - available here https://sites.google.com/site/soundfonts4u/
You can play along to the midis with the Yamaha's internal sounds or with another app (like bs-16i that allows you to play soundfonts).
I'm very happy with this set up - it only requires one USB cable and the Apple CCK for everything to work - including audio back to the Yamaha's speakers or headphones.


As far as I can tell elements such as articulations, velocity layers etc do not exist in these files...

That will make the files sound raw and robotic.


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[/quote]
As far as I can tell elements such as articulations, velocity layers etc do not exist in these files...

That will make the files sound raw and robotic.[/quote]

My Yamaha P121 has maximum 4 velocity layers on the piano and less on other sounds. Most of the pianos on my site have 6 or more layers.
It is true that most GM sets have single velocity layers for many of the sounds and that annoys me as well. That is why I added multivelocity pianos, guitars and basses to give the GM set a bit of a lift in realism. They are not quite a good as my $3000 Korg but for a $10 app I'm pretty happy!

Last edited by Jonky Ponky; 10/14/21 09:54 PM.
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You could just get an 88-key midi controller and hook it up to the PSR-S900. Or get a DP with good action and piano sound and keep the PSR-S900 for the functionality you use on it, and to play instruments other than piano or electric piano where a hammer weight keyboard is a liability.

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4 velocity layers seems low, but if they are well blended, this can give you multiple tones without velocity layer gap.


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Originally Posted by Jonky Ponky
My Yamaha P121 has maximum 4 velocity layers on the piano and less on other sounds. Most of the pianos on my site have 6 or more layers.
It is true that most GM sets have single velocity layers for many of the sounds and that annoys me as well. That is why I added multivelocity pianos, guitars and basses to give the GM set a bit of a lift in realism. They are not quite a good as my $3000 Korg but for a $10 app I'm pretty happy!

I am talking about the GM voice set that is discussed here. Even with multiple velocity layers as long as you don't use the articulations heavily nothing will sound real with the majority of acoustic instruments.

Articulations are sample-specific and may sound completely off if applied to another sample. Trumpet shake, falls or guitar slides and fret noises etc are just some examples.


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Originally Posted by Abdol
Articulations are sample-specific and may sound completely off if applied to another sample. Trumpet shake, falls or guitar slides and fret noises etc are just some examples.
From what I've seen, typically these articulations are not "applied" to samples, rather these articulations ARE samples. AFAIK, they do not exist in GM... maybe they exist in some of the "extended" GM sets from Roland (GS) or Yamaha (XG), I don't know. But when you find them in arrangers, the implementation is brand specific (and perhaps even model specific). So for example, while a Korg and Yamaha arranger may both have invokable samples of a shake, they are not "located" in the same place from a MIDI perspective. It's even possible that, on one brand, the effect may be created by MIDI-triggering the same note with a different velocity, while on another brand, the effect is created by triggering a different MIDI note entirely, simply depending on where the manufacturer mapped that sample to.

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Originally Posted by anotherscott
From what I've seen, typically these articulations are not "applied" to samples, rather these articulations ARE samples. AFAIK...

I don't see what you're trying to deliver here. This is what I said:

Quote
Articulations are sample-specific and may sound completely off if applied to another sample.

And what you said is not accurate. You can manually perform some of the articulations manually and they will sound close enough. It depends on the articulation.

Sax falls is an example of what is considered as an articulation (by Korg, Yamaha, Roland, and etc. ) but can be done manually if you know how to do it

So if you play a song and use specific articulation samples and use the recorded notes (midi channel and notes etc) on another voice (midi channel and sample) it will sound completely off because it's a totally different mapping etc. layout

Last edited by Abdol; 10/15/21 11:11 AM.

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Maybe this will make the concept more clear: https://sandsoftwaresound.net/creating-mega-voice-yem/

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Originally Posted by anotherscott
Maybe this will make the concept more clear: https://sandsoftwaresound.net/creating-mega-voice-yem/

No, it doesn't help to make the subject clear but I assure you if you read my posts a few more times it will make things clear for you.


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Abdol, the main point of reffering you to that link is to show that, in order to initiate a guitar slide, the arranger is not applying some kind of slide function/algorithm/parameter to a giutar sample... rather, it plays an entirely different sample, a sample of the slide itself (i.e. by issuing a command to play the guitar note specifically with a velocity in the range of 106 to 120, which is where the recorded sample of the slide resides on that particular keyboard... which is likely not going to correspond to how you would create that effect on a Korg or whatever).

Or to try this from another angle, you said "Articulations are sample-specific and may sound completely off if applied to another sample." -- Articulations are not sample-specific. However articulations are specific samples. Because as I said before, and this example demonstrates, articulations are not applied to samples... articulations are samples. The fact that you may or may not be able to roughly duplicate an artilcuation effect some other way (i.e. where you said "Sax falls...an be done manually if you know how to do it") doesn't change the fact that the way these keyboards handle these articulations is typically by playing an alternate sample.

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Originally Posted by Abdol
Originally Posted by Jonky Ponky
I recently moved from an expensive arranger keyboard (Korg Pa3x) to a Yamaha P121 and wanted to keep using my large number of midi files with the new setup.
I solved the problem by using two apps on my iPhone which connects to the Yamaha P121 which sends midi and receives digital audio back to the piano.
The first app is "Sweet Midi Player" which will not only play midi files but also has a built in mixer to swap, mute, change volume of instruments etc, but also displays lyrics to midis with lyrics/karaoke files.
The default GM set of instruments is only mediocre but you can use your own GM set (like Roland sound canvas or even a free set I have compiled - available here https://sites.google.com/site/soundfonts4u/
You can play along to the midis with the Yamaha's internal sounds or with another app (like bs-16i that allows you to play soundfonts).
I'm very happy with this set up - it only requires one USB cable and the Apple CCK for everything to work - including audio back to the Yamaha's speakers or headphones.


As far as I can tell elements such as articulations, velocity layers etc do not exist in these files...

That will make the files sound raw and robotic.
Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by Abdol
Articulations are sample-specific and may sound completely off if applied to another sample. Trumpet shake, falls or guitar slides and fret noises etc are just some examples.
From what I've seen, typically these articulations are not "applied" to samples, rather these articulations ARE samples. AFAIK, they do not exist in GM... maybe they exist in some of the "extended" GM sets from Roland (GS) or Yamaha (XG), I don't know. But when you find them in arrangers, the implementation is brand specific (and perhaps even model specific). So for example, while a Korg and Yamaha arranger may both have invokable samples of a shake, they are not "located" in the same place from a MIDI perspective. It's even possible that, on one brand, the effect may be created by MIDI-triggering the same note with a different velocity, while on another brand, the effect is created by triggering a different MIDI note entirely, simply depending on where the manufacturer mapped that sample to.

If OP specifically asked about “articulations” , my apologies for having missed it, but since they did put a DGX660 on the table and since others are now debating articulations in a context that OP did inquire, these are among the numerous new features mentioned for DGX670 in many review videos linked into the “no love for 670?” thread.

In the 1.75 hour “clinic” review done by Yamaha & Sam Ash, examples (somewhat convincing to my ears) of guitar - acoustic/nylon/bass/electric are demo’d as well as sax and other instruments. The 11 minute review by Yamaha Australia ( played by Bradley Eustace) also dem’os articulations for brass instruments and guitars, some of which can be triggered by user pedal/controller/playlist settings.

None of these numerous videos that ive studied explains / spells out how these articulations are accomplished, but as anotherscott says, it makes sense if they are facilitated by separate samples.

None of these reviews also do not mention the implications of using / playing “standard midi files” so called. 🙂


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Originally Posted by drewr
If OP specifically asked about “articulations” , my apologies for having missed it
I don't know how we got on to that either. ;-)

OP (the one who has re-opened the new thread) merely quoted this specifically as what he is looking for:

Quote
Yes, would like "good" built in speakers but also a good speaker out

Casio seems to be teasing us for the NAMM 2019.
Come on someone put out a good 88 keyboard with good action and arranger set up with fantastic sounds for under $2500 USD.

Anything beyond that, at this point (articulations, playing MIDI files, whatever), is not necessarily relevant, unless that poster comes back and tells us otherwise. And yeah, there's probably still no great board for this. ;-) The 88-key arrangers only seem to be available on the lower end of the spectrum... potential candidates might be Korg XE20, Casio PX-560, the aforementioned DGX-670.

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Just in case rogerc is interested in a DP with multiple “articulating” instruments, the 670 has 430 built-in instrument voices, 40 of which Yami calls “ super articulating”.

I don’t expect many have the patience like i to study hours of reviews for one low-end DP, but ..... the first vid below runs 11 minutes and utilizes ( but does not explain the setup) the use of several SA voices. The second one runs near 1.75 hours but the first half hour demo’s SA sax (breath sounds) as well as SA guitar (fingering, and scraping) sounds.






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Originally Posted by anotherscott
Abdol, the main point of reffering you to that link is to show that, in order to initiate a guitar slide, the arranger is not applying some kind of slide function/algorithm/parameter to a giutar sample... rather, it plays an entirely different sample, a sample of the slide itself (i.e. by issuing a command to play the guitar note specifically with a velocity in the range of 106 to 120, which is where the recorded sample of the slide resides on that particular keyboard... which is likely not going to correspond to how you would create that effect on a Korg or whatever).

Or to try this from another angle, you said "Articulations are sample-specific and may sound completely off if applied to another sample." -- Articulations are not sample-specific. However articulations are specific samples. Because as I said before, and this example demonstrates, articulations are not applied to samples... articulations are samples. The fact that you may or may not be able to roughly duplicate an artilcuation effect some other way (i.e. where you said "Sax falls...an be done manually if you know how to do it") doesn't change the fact that the way these keyboards handle these articulations is typically by playing an alternate sample.

My issue is that I already know all of that stuff. I know how it works and that's why I don't see any point in you trying to lecture me here.


Yes. If you have a trumpet shake sample assigned to a specific layer in a specific voice/sound and you use this element in your performance and export your performance to a MIDI file and play this MIDI file on another machine, the articulations will sound totally different. It may sound as a piano, or as a synth or whatever sound the new machine recognizes it (unless you have done GM mappings).

So if you want to be Nazzi about everything and nit-pick on every freaking post, you're more than welcome to do it


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Ooops,

Just in case CLEMFANDANGO is interested in a DP with .....


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Forgetting all the technical side of how the sounds work (and I do know how they work because I have made some of my own soundfonts) I thought I'd post an example of a stock standard free midi file backing of Your Song played on the Sweet Midi app on an iPhone with a free GM soundfont from my site. Its not perfect by any means (I added some cymbol taps at the beginning to keep me in time when I mute the piano) but it makes use of a 6 velocity layer piano, a 4 velocity layer acoustic bass and a steel guitar that I compliled with some help from the guy who sampled it.
https://soundcloud.com/john-nebauer/gm-soundfont-your-song?si=35ba31130e7545a698e3d9215eb6687b

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Hello everyone. I dont remember if I ever posted here before so consider me a newbie, thanks. This question concerns the DGX670 and comments I have read expressing disappointment in the sole 3.5mm audio out. For any techies out there, would it be possible to plug a "Audio Jack USB External Sound Card" into the USB port for the memory stick to drive another audio device (headphone/amp)? They are available starting at around $10.

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In DGX670 specifications I see:

Quote
USB audio interface 44.1 kHz, 16-bit, stereo

So, you can route the audio from the DGX into a computer, apparently.

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Maybe could also route that directly into the USB sound card vs computer. Thank you.
.

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