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I'm used to it...And love it the way it is! It's very therapeutic, to me, and just seems to slow the world down when I'm here. My favorite is the total tally of posts to the far right of each thread!

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Re “security”…

I have have to chuckle each time “the site is ‘insecure’” resurfaces. Most people don’t even really know what that means. This browser warning is pointing out that a page is using the http protocol as opposed to https. The latter encrypts communication between your browser and a site’s server (and does not guarantee that it’s otherwise encrypted or secure either in your browser or on the server). If you’re conducting sensitive business (banking, etc), then you should do so over just such a secure connection, but for non-sensitive stuff, http is generally just as good as it has been since the 1990s.

So, what’s at risk on PW? Your password and ID. Ok. But PW doesn’t ask for your SSN, your credit card number, or any other financial info. There is a spot for your birthday, but it’s optional. PW doesn’t even require your real name! Subscriptions are processed through secure channels (and I believe you can even send a check if you prefer). PW requires no sensitive data be provided by you. There’s nothing to secure.

Given the sage advice above to avoid using the same password on multiple sites, let’s examine what’s probably the worst case scenario: you’re browsing PW on a “compromised” coffee shop’s wifi, and a sniffer attains your password. Well, even if you unfortunately chose to use the same password for your bank, the hacker still has to figure out (1) where you bank, (2) your account ID at the bank, and (3) navigate the two-factor authentication that your bank very likely employs (because sites that need strong security will have it).

BTW, non-forum parts of PW use https, as does the checkout process at Frank’s online store, so I think it’s reasonable to conclude that Frank understands it, and judiciously deploys it where he deems it necessary.

There’s an industry-wide push towards https, and it’s probably a good thing, but it doesn’t mean that PW all of a sudden has a problem.

There may be compelling reasons to switch to https, but the securing of personal info, in this case, is not one of them.


History lesson: https has been around since 1995. Yahoo [in]famously didn’t even adopt it for email until 2014. Savvy folks have always known to “look for the lock” icon when conducting sensitive business online. That was a passive process. The latest browser versions have started to actively mark things as “insecure,” which is probably good, but now people sometimes assume the sky is falling, when it isn’t. PW isn’t suddenly “insecure” just because people are upgrading their browsers. It’s running the same protocol that it always has.


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Re the look and feel…

I like an old comfortable chair, my favorite well-worn sweater, greasy spoons and mom and pop dives, old fashioned hardware stores, and used book stores. I like old cars and trucks. Heck, I even like old people.

I like PianoWorld just fine. Nine times out of ten, I’m even using it on my iPhone SE (with it’s deliberately chosen small screen).

If people want all the latest bells and whistles, then they can participate in one of the many Facebook piano groups, or a piano sub-reddit.


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Not having SSL, and having your login credentials transmitted in plain text is lame. This is not 1990.

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1990? I have a 1915 piano and it beats the daylights out of(at last count six) nice 2015 - 2020 pianos I have recently played..

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Originally Posted by TBell
Not having SSL, and having your login credentials transmitted in plain text is lame. This is not 1990.

Even using SSL would be lame as it has been deprecated in favor of TLS.

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Originally Posted by Retsacnal
Re “security”…

I have have to chuckle each time “the site is ‘insecure’” resurfaces. Most people don’t even really know what that means. This browser warning is pointing out that a page is using the http protocol as opposed to https. The latter encrypts communication between your browser and a site’s server (and does not guarantee that it’s otherwise encrypted or secure either in your browser or on the server). If you’re conducting sensitive business (banking, etc), then you should do so over just such a secure connection, but for non-sensitive stuff, http is generally just as good as it has been since the 1990s.

So, what’s at risk on PW? Your password and ID. Ok. But PW doesn’t ask for your SSN, your credit card number, or any other financial info. There is a spot for your birthday, but it’s optional. PW doesn’t even require your real name! Subscriptions are processed through secure channels (and I believe you can even send a check if you prefer). PW requires no sensitive data be provided by you. There’s nothing to secure.

Given the sage advice above to avoid using the same password on multiple sites, let’s examine what’s probably the worst case scenario: you’re browsing PW on a “compromised” coffee shop’s wifi, and a sniffer attains your password. Well, even if you unfortunately chose to use the same password for your bank, the hacker still has to figure out (1) where you bank, (2) your account ID at the bank, and (3) navigate the two-factor authentication that your bank very likely employs (because sites that need strong security will have it).

BTW, non-forum parts of PW use https, as does the checkout process at Frank’s online store, so I think it’s reasonable to conclude that Frank understands it, and judiciously deploys it where he deems it necessary.

There’s an industry-wide push towards https, and it’s probably a good thing, but it doesn’t mean that PW all of a sudden has a problem.

There may be compelling reasons to switch to https, but the securing of personal info, in this case, is not one of them.


History lesson: https has been around since 1995. Yahoo [in]famously didn’t even adopt it for email until 2014. Savvy folks have always known to “look for the lock” icon when conducting sensitive business online. That was a passive process. The latest browser versions have started to actively mark things as “insecure,” which is probably good, but now people sometimes assume the sky is falling, when it isn’t. PW isn’t suddenly “insecure” just because people are upgrading their browsers. It’s running the same protocol that it always has.

It has always been insecure, but attacks are more common and more sophisticated today than in 1995. Digging out from the aftermath of an attack is likely to be a much bigger and more onerous and expensive task than implementing TLS. Hint: an admin account also can be compromised.

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Originally Posted by Sweelinck
It has always been insecure, but attacks are more common and more sophisticated today than in 1995. Digging out from the aftermath of an attack is likely to be a much bigger and more onerous and expensive task than implementing TLS. Hint: an admin account also can be compromised.

I agree on all counts. I vaguely recall making the same point about admin accounts in some other incarnation of this topic, but don't see it after a quick search.

Anyway, I did come across this thread in which Frank actually speaks up several times about the issue, and the associated challenges:

http://forums.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2852852/re-https.html#Post2852852


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I know nothing about running a site and almost nothing about IT generally!

What I do know is that I am very grateful for an outstanding resource. Could it be improved? I suppose pretty well anything can be improved. As it is it works fine for me.


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Personally, I lock my cars if they're out on the driveway, but not if they're in the garage. I lock the front door, but there's no lock on the sidewalk that leads to it. So, someone can get on my property, but they can't easily get in the house. They can't get in the cars unless they can first get into the house (or I forget to lock them outside).

There are always multiple ways to solve a problem. You can try to lock "everything," and as soon as you do you'll miss something. Or you can try to determine what needs to be locked up, and what doesn't, and are equally likely to make a mistake.

I know there are lots of other people "out there" who do this sort of work. But Frank's been doing it on THIS site for 20+ years. Not to mention that it's his decision. If people don't like the situation, or think they're in jeopardy, then they can opt not to use the site.


I'm gonna assume that the things that need to be locked up are, and I'm gonna take the "risk" on the remainder, because I believe the risk is relatively low. I enjoy the site, in spite of these issues.


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Originally Posted by Retsacnal
Re “security”…

I have have to chuckle each time “the site is ‘insecure’” resurfaces. Most people don’t even really know what that means. This browser warning is pointing out that a page is using the http protocol as opposed to https. The latter encrypts communication between your browser and a site’s server (and does not guarantee that it’s otherwise encrypted or secure either in your browser or on the server). If you’re conducting sensitive business (banking, etc), then you should do so over just such a secure connection, but for non-sensitive stuff, http is generally just as good as it has been since the 1990s.

So, what’s at risk on PW? Your password and ID. Ok. But PW doesn’t ask for your SSN, your credit card number, or any other financial info. There is a spot for your birthday, but it’s optional. PW doesn’t even require your real name! Subscriptions are processed through secure channels (and I believe you can even send a check if you prefer). PW requires no sensitive data be provided by you. There’s nothing to secure.

Given the sage advice above to avoid using the same password on multiple sites, let’s examine what’s probably the worst case scenario: you’re browsing PW on a “compromised” coffee shop’s wifi, and a sniffer attains your password. Well, even if you unfortunately chose to use the same password for your bank, the hacker still has to figure out (1) where you bank, (2) your account ID at the bank, and (3) navigate the two-factor authentication that your bank very likely employs (because sites that need strong security will have it).

BTW, non-forum parts of PW use https, as does the checkout process at Frank’s online store, so I think it’s reasonable to conclude that Frank understands it, and judiciously deploys it where he deems it necessary.

There’s an industry-wide push towards https, and it’s probably a good thing, but it doesn’t mean that PW all of a sudden has a problem.

There may be compelling reasons to switch to https, but the securing of personal info, in this case, is not one of them.


History lesson: https has been around since 1995. Yahoo [in]famously didn’t even adopt it for email until 2014. Savvy folks have always known to “look for the lock” icon when conducting sensitive business online. That was a passive process. The latest browser versions have started to actively mark things as “insecure,” which is probably good, but now people sometimes assume the sky is falling, when it isn’t. PW isn’t suddenly “insecure” just because people are upgrading their browsers. It’s running the same protocol that it always has.
Maybe missed the point: one of the reasons I haven't subscribed is the fact you have to share credit card info to do so. I would prefer to do that on a secure site.

But if payments are being collected by other means say PayPal then maybe its ok. But even PayPal is not always safe.

Either way. I have a business website and I make my customers at the very least feel that all safety protocols are in place. I just think it's good business, but that being said just as everyone here has said I do appreciate everything Frank does to run this website.

Last edited by Jethro; 10/14/21 07:31 AM.

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Originally Posted by Jethro
Originally Posted by Retsacnal
Re “security”…

I have have to chuckle each time “the site is ‘insecure’” resurfaces. Most people don’t even really know what that means. This browser warning is pointing out that a page is using the http protocol as opposed to https. The latter encrypts communication between your browser and a site’s server (and does not guarantee that it’s otherwise encrypted or secure either in your browser or on the server). If you’re conducting sensitive business (banking, etc), then you should do so over just such a secure connection, but for non-sensitive stuff, http is generally just as good as it has been since the 1990s.

So, what’s at risk on PW? Your password and ID. Ok. But PW doesn’t ask for your SSN, your credit card number, or any other financial info. There is a spot for your birthday, but it’s optional. PW doesn’t even require your real name! Subscriptions are processed through secure channels (and I believe you can even send a check if you prefer). PW requires no sensitive data be provided by you. There’s nothing to secure.

Given the sage advice above to avoid using the same password on multiple sites, let’s examine what’s probably the worst case scenario: you’re browsing PW on a “compromised” coffee shop’s wifi, and a sniffer attains your password. Well, even if you unfortunately chose to use the same password for your bank, the hacker still has to figure out (1) where you bank, (2) your account ID at the bank, and (3) navigate the two-factor authentication that your bank very likely employs (because sites that need strong security will have it).

BTW, non-forum parts of PW use https, as does the checkout process at Frank’s online store, so I think it’s reasonable to conclude that Frank understands it, and judiciously deploys it where he deems it necessary.

There’s an industry-wide push towards https, and it’s probably a good thing, but it doesn’t mean that PW all of a sudden has a problem.

There may be compelling reasons to switch to https, but the securing of personal info, in this case, is not one of them.


History lesson: https has been around since 1995. Yahoo [in]famously didn’t even adopt it for email until 2014. Savvy folks have always known to “look for the lock” icon when conducting sensitive business online. That was a passive process. The latest browser versions have started to actively mark things as “insecure,” which is probably good, but now people sometimes assume the sky is falling, when it isn’t. PW isn’t suddenly “insecure” just because people are upgrading their browsers. It’s running the same protocol that it always has.
Maybe missed the point: one of the reasons I haven't subscribed is the fact you have to share credit card info to do so. I would prefer to do that on a secure site.

But if payments are being collected by other means say PayPal then maybe its ok. But even PayPal is not always safe.

Either way. I have a business website and I make my customers at the very least feel that all safety protocols are in place. I just think it's good business, but that being said just as everyone here has said I do appreciate everything Frank does to run this website.


Payments for subscriptions/donations are through PayPal.


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
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I'm sure if folks really wanted to help Frank with his PW expenses or to make it better they could find a way to contribute securely. Heck, they could even mail him a check annually.

Rich


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Originally Posted by dogperson
Originally Posted by Jethro
Originally Posted by Retsacnal
Re “security”…

I have have to chuckle each time “the site is ‘insecure’” resurfaces. Most people don’t even really know what that means. This browser warning is pointing out that a page is using the http protocol as opposed to https. The latter encrypts communication between your browser and a site’s server (and does not guarantee that it’s otherwise encrypted or secure either in your browser or on the server). If you’re conducting sensitive business (banking, etc), then you should do so over just such a secure connection, but for non-sensitive stuff, http is generally just as good as it has been since the 1990s.

So, what’s at risk on PW? Your password and ID. Ok. But PW doesn’t ask for your SSN, your credit card number, or any other financial info. There is a spot for your birthday, but it’s optional. PW doesn’t even require your real name! Subscriptions are processed through secure channels (and I believe you can even send a check if you prefer). PW requires no sensitive data be provided by you. There’s nothing to secure.

Given the sage advice above to avoid using the same password on multiple sites, let’s examine what’s probably the worst case scenario: you’re browsing PW on a “compromised” coffee shop’s wifi, and a sniffer attains your password. Well, even if you unfortunately chose to use the same password for your bank, the hacker still has to figure out (1) where you bank, (2) your account ID at the bank, and (3) navigate the two-factor authentication that your bank very likely employs (because sites that need strong security will have it).

BTW, non-forum parts of PW use https, as does the checkout process at Frank’s online store, so I think it’s reasonable to conclude that Frank understands it, and judiciously deploys it where he deems it necessary.

There’s an industry-wide push towards https, and it’s probably a good thing, but it doesn’t mean that PW all of a sudden has a problem.

There may be compelling reasons to switch to https, but the securing of personal info, in this case, is not one of them.


History lesson: https has been around since 1995. Yahoo [in]famously didn’t even adopt it for email until 2014. Savvy folks have always known to “look for the lock” icon when conducting sensitive business online. That was a passive process. The latest browser versions have started to actively mark things as “insecure,” which is probably good, but now people sometimes assume the sky is falling, when it isn’t. PW isn’t suddenly “insecure” just because people are upgrading their browsers. It’s running the same protocol that it always has.
Maybe missed the point: one of the reasons I haven't subscribed is the fact you have to share credit card info to do so. I would prefer to do that on a secure site.

But if payments are being collected by other means say PayPal then maybe its ok. But even PayPal is not always safe.

Either way. I have a business website and I make my customers at the very least feel that all safety protocols are in place. I just think it's good business, but that being said just as everyone here has said I do appreciate everything Frank does to run this website.


Payments for subscriptions/donations are through PayPal.
Ok that's good to know and safe, but my first impression of the site was that it was not "secured" and that definitely affected my perception of whether or not it was safe to do financial transactions with the site. Just food for thought.


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Originally Posted by Rich D.
I'm sure if folks really wanted to help Frank with his PW expenses or to make it better they could find a way to contribute securely. Heck, they could even mail him a check annually.

Rich

Someone could also just go to his house with a bag full of cash!


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Originally Posted by malkin
Originally Posted by Rich D.
I'm sure if folks really wanted to help Frank with his PW expenses or to make it better they could find a way to contribute securely. Heck, they could even mail him a check annually.

Rich

Someone could also just go to his house with a bag full of cash!
You're welcome to drop off some at my place of business on your way.


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Originally Posted by Jethro
Originally Posted by dogperson
Originally Posted by Jethro
Originally Posted by Retsacnal
Re “security”…

I have have to chuckle each time “the site is ‘insecure’” resurfaces. Most people don’t even really know what that means. This browser warning is pointing out that a page is using the http protocol as opposed to https. The latter encrypts communication between your browser and a site’s server (and does not guarantee that it’s otherwise encrypted or secure either in your browser or on the server). If you’re conducting sensitive business (banking, etc), then you should do so over just such a secure connection, but for non-sensitive stuff, http is generally just as good as it has been since the 1990s.

So, what’s at risk on PW? Your password and ID. Ok. But PW doesn’t ask for your SSN, your credit card number, or any other financial info. There is a spot for your birthday, but it’s optional. PW doesn’t even require your real name! Subscriptions are processed through secure channels (and I believe you can even send a check if you prefer). PW requires no sensitive data be provided by you. There’s nothing to secure.

Given the sage advice above to avoid using the same password on multiple sites, let’s examine what’s probably the worst case scenario: you’re browsing PW on a “compromised” coffee shop’s wifi, and a sniffer attains your password. Well, even if you unfortunately chose to use the same password for your bank, the hacker still has to figure out (1) where you bank, (2) your account ID at the bank, and (3) navigate the two-factor authentication that your bank very likely employs (because sites that need strong security will have it).

BTW, non-forum parts of PW use https, as does the checkout process at Frank’s online store, so I think it’s reasonable to conclude that Frank understands it, and judiciously deploys it where he deems it necessary.

There’s an industry-wide push towards https, and it’s probably a good thing, but it doesn’t mean that PW all of a sudden has a problem.

There may be compelling reasons to switch to https, but the securing of personal info, in this case, is not one of them.


History lesson: https has been around since 1995. Yahoo [in]famously didn’t even adopt it for email until 2014. Savvy folks have always known to “look for the lock” icon when conducting sensitive business online. That was a passive process. The latest browser versions have started to actively mark things as “insecure,” which is probably good, but now people sometimes assume the sky is falling, when it isn’t. PW isn’t suddenly “insecure” just because people are upgrading their browsers. It’s running the same protocol that it always has.
Maybe missed the point: one of the reasons I haven't subscribed is the fact you have to share credit card info to do so. I would prefer to do that on a secure site.

But if payments are being collected by other means say PayPal then maybe its ok. But even PayPal is not always safe.

Either way. I have a business website and I make my customers at the very least feel that all safety protocols are in place. I just think it's good business, but that being said just as everyone here has said I do appreciate everything Frank does to run this website.


Payments for subscriptions/donations are through PayPal.
Ok that's good to know and safe, but my first impression of the site was that it was not "secured" and that definitely affected my perception of whether or not it was safe to do financial transactions with the site. Just food for thought.


Once you link to PayPal, it is a secure transaction As a payment is totally through their website


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That's good to know. Maybe a pop up screen with a Please subscribe request and informing posters that is safe and easy through PayPal would help.


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Originally Posted by Jethro
That's good to know. Maybe a pop up screen with a Please subscribe request and informing posters that is safe and easy through PayPal would help.


Why don’t you send your suggestion to Frank?


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
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I use pianosupplies.com whenever possible. That's one way of supporting Frank. Service has always been good, never had an issue.


Gary
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