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It is Blüthner that has the fourth aliquot string, not Bösendorfer. I do not think any of this stuff necessarily makes pianos better, just different.


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Originally Posted by Withindale
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson
What other approach? As a technician I've spent time underneath a Fazioli examining rim and construction and see no evidence of what you say.

I was referring to the manufacturer's (stated) approach to the design and sound of their pianos. As I understand it Fazioli want the rest of the piano to have as little influence as possible on the vibrations of the soundboard whereas, for instance, Yamaha want their ARE rims to colour the sound of SX pianos.

This is just marketing fluff. Certainly, the type of wood used in rims have an affect. Fazioli, as sen by personal inspection, use, what looks to me, as delignit factory sheets for the outer rim, so nothing special there. All soundboards are glued to the rim. Steinway and those that copy it like Fazioli and Yamaha and many more, couple the rim to the plate also to achieve this purpose. All manufacturers do, with some exceptions where the rim is designed to be part of the tone producing components. I have seen, by personal inspection, absolutely nothing on a Fazioli that shows any technique or material use the do this as good as or better than anyone else. Yamaha may use a higher quality rim on their boutique pianos, but this is not remarkable because the rims on their other pianos are not equal to many other pianos so the pianos with the supposed new technology can only be an improvement, and if marketing want to attribute that to some new buzzword, so what? It amkes customers feel special

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Originally Posted by BDB
I do not think any of this stuff necessarily makes pianos better, just different.

And, it seems, the only practical way to account for their differences is for marketeers to invent design concepts and buzzwords. So much foe engineering.


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Originally Posted by Withindale
Originally Posted by BDB
I do not think any of this stuff necessarily makes pianos better, just different.

And, it seems, the only practical way to account for their differences is for marketeers to invent design concepts and buzzwords. So much foe engineering.

All manufacturers have to differentiate themselves. Lately, the rim is the battleground. Bechstein differentiates levels of pianos be making different rims, as does Yamaha. Fazioli says their rim is their secret sauce. Bottom line, they're all good pianos and get the one you can afford and like the most. There's no magic rims, soundboards, scaling

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Acoustic Resonance Enhancement is a Yamaha marketer's buzzword for torification of the rim lumber. That may be a good thing, but Yamaha certainly did not invent it, as it has been around for centuries in a variety of protocols. Their inner rim is maple, the outer rim is maple and mahogany. (Not delignit as Steve Jackson states). Otherwise, Steinway and Yamaha and Fazioli's rims are much more alike than dissimilar.

Fazioli caps their bridges with maple on the bass bridge and the tenor portion of the treble bridge. The lower treble is capped with hornbeam and the high treble with boxwood. That is part of their sound profile.


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Originally Posted by WilliamTruitt
Acoustic Resonance Enhancement is a Yamaha marketer's buzzword for torification of the rim lumber. That may be a good thing, but Yamaha certainly did not invent it, as it has been around for centuries in a variety of protocols. Their inner rim is maple, the outer rim is maple and mahogany. (Not delignit as Steve Jackson states). Otherwise, Steinway and Yamaha and Fazioli's rims are much more alike than dissimilar.

Fazioli caps their bridges with maple on the bass bridge and the tenor portion of the treble bridge. The lower treble is capped with hornbeam and the high treble with boxwood. That is part of their sound profile.

Are you talking about Fazioli being maple and mahogany? Not on the ones I've inspected, but perhaps on other models.
the outer rim of the ones I've seen look like delignit to me. I made no claim about Yamaha rim materials

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Originally Posted by WilliamTruitt
Acoustic Resonance Enhancement is a Yamaha marketer's buzzword for torification of the rim lumber. That may be a good thing, but Yamaha certainly did not invent it, as it has been around for centuries in a variety of protocols.

Is it torrefaction process? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torrefaction

Kind of clever way of making "old wood" quickly in industrial scale?

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Originally Posted by kre
Originally Posted by WilliamTruitt
Acoustic Resonance Enhancement is a Yamaha marketer's buzzword for torification of the rim lumber. That may be a good thing, but Yamaha certainly did not invent it, as it has been around for centuries in a variety of protocols.

Is it torrefaction process? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torrefaction

Kind of clever way of making "old wood" quickly in industrial scale?

Yes it is that process, but it is not a way of making "old wood". It is a process that changes the properties of the wood, potentially quite dramatically depending on the wood and intensity of the treatment, but it is not the same as ageing. In general I would expect it to make wood more rigid (i.e. improve the stiffness) but also make it more brittle. I have never weighed wood before and after but I guess it might also end up fractionally lighter as volatiles are driven off.

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@kre I wonder how much biomass or equivalent you have burn to get the next tonne of torrified biomass?

From memory of their patent, Yamaha say they use steam at 180°C for an hour so in their proces.


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Originally Posted by Withindale
@kre I wonder how much biomass or equivalent you have burn to get the next tonne of torrified biomass?

From memory of their patent, Yamaha say they use steam at 180°C for an hour so in their proces.

That would be an odd interpretation of torrefaction of wood which, at least as I know it, is intended to change the wood's mechanical properties using dry heat. Wet heat with steam and a comparatively low temperature seems perhaps more like a preparation for bending the wood.

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Method for manufacturing modified wood [US6667429B2]

Abstract:
Wood such as spruce, maple, and hornbeam are retained in high pressure steam of pressure 0.2 to 1.6 MPa at 120 to 200° C. for 1 to 60 minutes, and subsequently, cooled and dried to obtain a modified wood having superior acoustic properties and old wood-like appearance due to a change to a deep color tone. Since the conventional modification methods by chemical treatment using chemicals such as resorcin and formaldehyde are not used, the treatment steps are simple and a modified wood used as a material for musical instruments is obtained at low cost.

Piano:
Two pianos were prepared using the modified wood (spruce) according to the present invention as a Soundboard. The pianos were compared with a piano prepared using untreated wood. Each piano was played by two famous players and was evaluated by 20 listeners. As a result, each piano using the modified wood was highly evaluated with respect to Volume, Sound, and expression.

Furthermore, bridges prepared using the modified wood were incorporated in the above pianos, and each piano was evaluated Similarly. As a result, each piano was highly evaluated with respect to Volume, Sound, and expression.


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It strongly resembles the fact that as wood ages it loses its hemi-cellulose (which initially acts as an insulator), gets a little lighter and stiffer.

"Torrefaction" is a fabulous marketing buzzword though.

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"Torrefaction" is also a French word used for "roasting of coffee". too bad piano using wood by torefaction do not smell as good as a cup of coffee in the morning.


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Hmmm...now that WOULD be an interesting selling point. I like that.

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Nothing beats the smell of Brazilian Rosewood.
The fallboard inlay made from BRW would be best innovation ever! laugh
Too bad it is CITES II wood.


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I use Terrified Lumber in my pianos. It better sound good, or else....


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Will,

Is that like mortified maple? ☺

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All this discussion of older wood and torrefied wood (making the wood lighter) makes me laugh because none of that makes a bit of difference when manufacturers or rebuilders design or replqce with soundboards that have 5lbs of too much wood. Check out this video i did a while back of 3 Baldwin R's.


Every manufacturer does this, they are very inconsistent with weight concerns because they don't think weight matters or that it can't be manipulated. But it can. Instead, they go on weird design tangents for what seems like marketing ploys instead of real science. I recently replaced a MHAA board and my new board was 8 lbs lighter. And WOW! just an incredible piano. I've been begging the client to send me recordings because they are great players. I'll be visiting them in a couple months with my recording equipment so i may be living on their couch until they give me a recording.
BTW, torrefied wood for piano soundboards is not new. The process was invented and used by Dunham Piano Company as far back as 1871.

-chris


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So you have found out that certain grands from certain maker at certain time period has a varying weight of soundboards. Ok. What does this have to do with Yamaha A.R.E treatment or torrif... torrefac.. whatever process? Does it mean that pianos made in industrial- or almost industrial scale also have soundboards that weigh different? If the weight is not same on every soundboard, the drying process is useless? Why?

If light weight soundboard is the key to success, I thing we would know it by now, after producing 150 years of modern style pianos.

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Originally Posted by Chernobieff Piano
I recently replaced a MHAA board and my new board was 8 lbs lighter. And WOW! just an incredible piano.
-chris

Richard Dain, the owner of Hurstwood Farm Pianos, says small changes can have a surprisingly large effect on the sound of a piano, as in Chris's WOW. Downbearing determines the thickness of soundboards. To get round that problem Richard designed his own bridge agraffes which transmit sound from the strings into the board without downbearing force. They are about twice as efficient as traditional pins.

The other day Richard showed me a Steingraeber E272 with a 4 mm spruce soundboard as well as a C212 with a 1 mm carbon fibre soundboard. Both were clear, precise and sonorous with long sustain. The E272 was next to a second one with a 1+ mm thick carbon fibre board. It was hard to tell the two apart.

The videos of these instruments on YouTube do them no justice at all. A final point to bear in mind is thicker carbon fibre boards produce too much high frequency sound to be any good, and other composite materials may prove better in the long run.

I think there is a bit more to the sound of those pianos than agraffes and thin boards but that is another story.


Ian Russell
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