2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
65 members (An Old Square, beginagain, Baltguy, bluebilly, anotherscott, ando, bobrunyan, august112, accordeur, 9 invisible), 729 guests, and 407 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,585
G
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,585
Originally Posted by Beemer
Yonion,
If the piano was out of tune when you played it at the dealers premises why did you not insist in it being at least tuned before delivery. In general pianos tuned and properly transported from a dealer to your home will not go out of tune during the transport. Entropy has not been supported with updates for a long time and I suggest you try PianoMeter.

Yes, Pianometer is great. However doing a full tuning with any of these devices is probably a bad idea if you are using the services of a piano tuner. This is because your tuner, and each device you use, will make different decisions and produce a different tuning curve. That means that you are making widespread changes your tuner will have to 'correct' to bring it back to his methods results and that is likely to be more work for him/her than if you did nothing, for which you may not be thanked. It's probably best to do no more than touch up the odd unison or individual note between tunings (if you are employing a tuner) so that the piano can reach a state of stability.

One day I hope to find a good local piano tuner who is also happy to use Pianometer, or similar, so we can both work towards the same goal with me just doing intermediate tunings as necessary but most tuners here work aurally.

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,886
j&j Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,886
Originally Posted by tre corda
I would discuss the really important issues first with the technician.For myself that would be a careful discussion about the torque of the pins,and tuning stability of the piano. Ask the question is there a problem with loose tuning pins on this piano? Of course a new piano will need a number of tunings to settle down.(we do know that)

I would not mention anything about tuning the piano after delivery.You need a good relationship with the dealers technicians.

After you have had this discussion then mention other aspects of regulation you would need the technician to work on.

Exactly. But it’s not MY piano.


J & J
Estonia L190 Hidden Beauty
The reason I’m old and wise is because God protected me when I was young and stupid.
[Linked Image]
Joined: Sep 2021
Posts: 65
Y
yonion Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
Y
Joined: Sep 2021
Posts: 65
Thanks all for great advices and the congrats. We like the piano very much, here is a short recording of my son's practicing. I used an external USB condenser mic ($30) and audacity to record it, the background noise is from the dehumidifier not the mic. (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UXg7EgQvJTEEClZLU7WuQP6s3MSC6P1u/view?usp=sharing).

I won't worry too much about the relationship with the dealer or the piano technician. I think we will focusing on making the piano perform well and whatever happened has happened. The piano is more than 5 years old, and it is not the condition right out of the factory anyway. So I think we will just tell the piano tech the problems we noticed and what we want and let him figure out everything. The dealer admit that they should have done the prep before delivery. But we bought it in a BSO sales event, when all the pianos were hauled from dealership to BSO and was on sale there for some time. We bought it on the last day of the event, so they have to leave the next day and they don't have time to do the prep and they didn't want to move the piano back to their dealership and then move to my place.

Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 382
K
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
K
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 382
It’s a good idea to let the tech know that you’ve tuned the piano yourself, so s/he can make a more accurate assessment of how the piano is settling in. I had a piano that the owner claimed unstable. It’s turned out it was a combination of unstable room humidity level and the diy tuning job that was actually counter productive in achieving the stability within the normal range. Not all techs are against diy jobs as long as the owner is using a proper tool and the technique.

Last edited by K8KT; 10/07/21 01:48 PM.
Joined: Sep 2021
Posts: 65
Y
yonion Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
Y
Joined: Sep 2021
Posts: 65
Thanks all! The piano technician came and tuned the piano and did the regulation and voicing. We showed him a list about notes we think whose sound was off and he said he can hear those problems too. We told him we play classical music mostly and it is a little hard to play soft, that's pretty much all he needs. Here is a recording of the piano a few weeks after the tuning, (the sound is loud, please use small volume). Any comments are welcome. I put a mic about 11 inches above the strings and also a phone 2 ft to the right side of the piano to record the piano. I found the phone's sound is better than the mic's, could anyone explain why? (The mic is a 30 dollar condenser USB mic for video conference.)

phone: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xxIK52ngjocguG7TymcljRsc-o6sz4Dg/view?usp=sharing
mic: https://drive.google.com/file/d/15sQSqQzGr0KpZgsSlT48H6CvHuqp3Jpv/view?usp=sharing

Last edited by yonion; 11/07/21 01:24 AM.
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 462
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 462
Your mic recording sounded the way it did due to being close to the strings and perhaps being a budget usb mic. Try experimenting with mic placement - a foot away from the rim, 2 feet, 5 feet etc. Have someone play the piano while you walk around with mic, listening with headphones, if possible. Mic placement takes some experimentation since pianos and room acoustics vary.

If you choose to upgrade your mics, consider getting two so you can record in stereo.

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 6,900
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 6,900
yonion,

I did a side-by side comparison of DIY focused microphone and camcorder options, placed in the same spot, with a player piano playing the same material, over and over. This is not the entire presentation, just the raw footage uploaded to YT (and one of the mics was obviously defective). I am not surprised that a $30 mic is going to sound no better than a smartphone, although finding the best possible placement usually trumps cost.

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLpbVB3_I0aqRoCAn8B5rYF09nJJ0IFJSa

Also, I wrote a Piano Buyer review a while back that focused on audio recorders of a particular price range. Certain ones of these can be fed to a camcorder via a "line out" jack for video without having to edit...so long as you can configure the camcorder to set a manual level for the line in, and defeat the "automatic level control" or whatever is used to compress the camcorder audio signal.

https://www.pianobuyer.com/article/portable-audio-recorders-149-199a-comparison-test/


Pianist, teacher, apprentice technician, internet addict.
Piano Review Editor - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 74
S
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
S
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 74
Originally Posted by Eric Gloo
Actually, absolutely DO tell the dealer's technician you tuned it yourself. Also, let the technician know how out of tune it was after delivery, and what you found with the tuning pin torque compared to your Baldwin Hamilton. Ask if this is something you should be concerned about. How far out of tune was it after delivery? Was it just an overall "out of tune", or did some notes sound like three notes instead of one? The lower torque tuning pins and the piano being way out of tune could very well be related.

As a technician, I disagree. When I go to tune or service a piano, I could care less about the customer's opinion of tuning pin torque or where the tuning was.
I'm the professional, not the piano customer. And in my experience, low tuning pin torque in new pianos is extremely rare. If anything, most of the new pianos I tune have very high torque pins. It's no different than giving advice to your lawyer or doctor, or telling the pilot how to fly the plane.
Any decent technician can tune the piano, recognize obvious faults like double-striking, or other issues.

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,808
J
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,808
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
yonion,

I did a side-by side comparison of DIY focused microphone and camcorder options, placed in the same spot, with a player piano playing the same material, over and over. This is not the entire presentation, just the raw footage uploaded to YT (and one of the mics was obviously defective). I am not surprised that a $30 mic is going to sound no better than a smartphone, although finding the best possible placement usually trumps cost.

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLpbVB3_I0aqRoCAn8B5rYF09nJJ0IFJSa

Also, I wrote a Piano Buyer review a while back that focused on audio recorders of a particular price range. Certain ones of these can be fed to a camcorder via a "line out" jack for video without having to edit...so long as you can configure the camcorder to set a manual level for the line in, and defeat the "automatic level control" or whatever is used to compress the camcorder audio signal.

https://www.pianobuyer.com/article/portable-audio-recorders-149-199a-comparison-test/
Any chance you can do a piece on budget recording options using available low cost audio interfaces and budget quality mics? There seems to be a ton of options out there for those who want to record beyond using Zoom mics. I have an H1n and I’m starting to dabble in recording with better equipment now but I’m cheap so always looking for high quality sound for less. My current set-up is a pair of Behrenger B-5’s ($69 each), a U-control Behrenger audio interface ($49) to my 2012 Mac Book Pro, and I had an old Samson 4 channel mixer laying around that I bought in 2005. B5 has cardioid and Omni capsules the latter of which I found useless in my noisy room. I think cardioids in an xy pattern close mic’d is my only option to do my Shigeru justice in my home. Plan to record with simple QuickTime software to point and click some recordings. A write-up on how to record a grand would be a nice feature in piano buyer.


Working on:
Preludio: Bach/Rachmaninoff E Major Sonata for Violin
Joined: Sep 2021
Posts: 65
Y
yonion Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
Y
Joined: Sep 2021
Posts: 65
I guess it may depend on the situation of the piano. In our case, the piano is pretty much new. Once the technician knows what we want, he just did his work just like you said. I guess if the piano is 100 years old with many works done on it or rebuilt, the tuner may benefit from knowing the history of the piano.

Originally Posted by Scott Cole, RPT
As a technician, I disagree. When I go to tune or service a piano, I could care less about the customer's opinion of tuning pin torque or where the tuning was.
I'm the professional, not the piano customer. And in my experience, low tuning pin torque in new pianos is extremely rare. If anything, most of the new pianos I tune have very high torque pins. It's no different than giving advice to your lawyer or doctor, or telling the pilot how to fly the plane.
Any decent technician can tune the piano, recognize obvious faults like double-striking, or other issues.

Joined: Sep 2021
Posts: 65
Y
yonion Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
Y
Joined: Sep 2021
Posts: 65
That's a good suggestion. The organizer of an online recital we are attending recommended a few USB mics for the computer:

Under $100: Fifine USB Microphone, Yeti Snowball
$100-$200: Blue Yeti, Audio Technica
$200 +: Rode NT-USB + Headphone Bundle

I don't like the mics that need XLR cables and external amps, just seems too much cables and electronic boxes for a casual recording.

Originally Posted by Jethro
Any chance you can do a piece on budget recording options using available low cost audio interfaces and budget quality mics? There seems to be a ton of options out there for those who want to record beyond using Zoom mics. I have an H1n and I’m starting to dabble in recording with better equipment now but I’m cheap so always looking for high quality sound for less. My current set-up is a pair of Behrenger B-5’s ($69 each), a U-control Behrenger audio interface ($49) to my 2012 Mac Book Pro, and I had an old Samson 4 channel mixer laying around that I bought in 2005. B5 has cardioid and Omni capsules the latter of which I found useless in my noisy room. I think cardioids in an xy pattern close mic’d is my only option to do my Shigeru justice in my home. Plan to record with simple QuickTime software to point and click some recordings. A write-up on how to record a grand would be a nice feature in piano buyer.

Joined: Sep 2021
Posts: 65
Y
yonion Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
Y
Joined: Sep 2021
Posts: 65
This is very helpful. I feel the Shure MV88 is the best, the second is the Oktava MK012 omni, the third place is Zoom h2n. But they seems very expensive for the recording quality except for the Shure one. Those XLR mics and external amps may still be the best way for recording.

Originally Posted by terminaldegree
yonion,

I did a side-by side comparison of DIY focused microphone and camcorder options, placed in the same spot, with a player piano playing the same material, over and over. This is not the entire presentation, just the raw footage uploaded to YT (and one of the mics was obviously defective). I am not surprised that a $30 mic is going to sound no better than a smartphone, although finding the best possible placement usually trumps cost.

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLpbVB3_I0aqRoCAn8B5rYF09nJJ0IFJSa

Also, I wrote a Piano Buyer review a while back that focused on audio recorders of a particular price range. Certain ones of these can be fed to a camcorder via a "line out" jack for video without having to edit...so long as you can configure the camcorder to set a manual level for the line in, and defeat the "automatic level control" or whatever is used to compress the camcorder audio signal.

https://www.pianobuyer.com/article/portable-audio-recorders-149-199a-comparison-test/

Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 133
K
kre Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
K
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 133
I'm also interested in recording my playing. Tried Zoom, next I will buy a pair of affordable microphones (Line Audio CM4). I have a small Behringer mixer and USB interface already.

You might find this useful:


Page 2 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Ken Knapp, Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
What's Hot!!
Pianos - Organs - & Keyboards, Oh My!
My first professionally recorded piece
---------------------
Visit Maine, Meet Mr. Piano World
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Bach Marcello Adagio Melody
by tjkane - 12/09/21 08:45 AM
1908 Knabe?
by beginagain - 12/09/21 12:54 AM
Piano lid material?
by Davdoc - 12/09/21 12:49 AM
Thoughts on Technics PR903
by McBuster - 12/09/21 12:46 AM
Kawai VPC-1 or Roland A88 MKII (or FP30X)?
by detektorosradio - 12/08/21 06:03 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics210,466
Posts3,151,730
Members103,566
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5