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Originally Posted by Tenor1
...That is the real extraordinary part of the Casio/Bechstein action.

There, fixed that for you.

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Originally Posted by Tenor1
I played a Casio GP-500 for two years until it was water damaged. Yesterday I received a Kawai NV5 as it's replacement. The NV5 has an upright action and feels completely different to play. I MUCH prefer the Casio simulated grand action and need to adjust to the Kawai.

All actions need a period of adjustment.

What are your thoughts about the other aspects of the NV5?

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Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by Tenor1
...That is the real extraordinary part of the Casio/Bechstein action.

There, fixed that for you.

You don't know what or how much Bechstein contributed to the action, or do you? This is how false information is circulated due to prejudice against a product.


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I am leaning towards GP310. Does it have the same action as GP510?

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Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by Tenor1
I played a Casio GP-500 for two years until it was water damaged. Yesterday I received a Kawai NV5 as it's replacement. The NV5 has an upright action and feels completely different to play. I MUCH prefer the Casio simulated grand action and need to adjust to the Kawai.

All actions need a period of adjustment.

What are your thoughts about the other aspects of the NV5?

I can't answer fairly at this point. I've only played the NV5 for about 30 minutes total. The manual is in front of me right now. What feels funny so far is the right pedal. The way it curves slightly to the right makes if feel smaller than pedals that are non curved. The sound is beautiful. The speaker system is much better than the GP500 speaker system. I was able to play a GP310 and the newer speaker configuration is improved.


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Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by Tenor1
...That is the real extraordinary part of the Casio/Bechstein action.

There, fixed that for you.
Whether the extraordinary part is from Casio or Bechstein doesn’t matter… the fact it is extraordinary is the important thing.

My feelings is that this action is far above the Tri Sensor II of Casio. Then Casio did the right thing when making a partnership with Bechstein… I would have an hard time deciding between Casio/Bechstein so called hybrid action, Yamaha GrandTouch, Roland PHA50 or Kawai GF2… my final decision was finally quite easy : the N1X action. smile

Last edited by Frédéric L; 09/29/21 12:20 PM.

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Originally Posted by CyberGene
How about if I'm an anarchist, so I define the rules! I even posted a middle finger ASCII art on this forum once and found myself banned because that's what I wanted: to be banned. I mean, I define the rules.

When Yamaha did introduced Hybrid Piano, then just reuse a word in a compatible way. They were the first to do it, then no risk of confusion.

Now the word is quite well connoted, Casio uses it to name something else. Ok, it is still compatible with the Oxford Dictionary (and other dictionaries) description, but this reuse is quite misleading. It would be like if BMW sell hybrid cars where the only hybridization is the use of a Peugeot motors and not one from its own factory.

Now, some shops even divide their catalogue of digital piano in slab / furniture / hybrid and then put Casio digital pianos in a category with far better pianos. Sure, we can argue this is compatible with such and such dictionary, but I find this way of presenting things quite misleading.

Last edited by Frédéric L; 09/29/21 12:40 PM.

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Casio using the "hybrid moniker," IMO, for the knowledgeable digital piano crowd is just a disingenuous way to increase their sales to unsuspectable piano buyers. Hey, my car has a battery, maybe I'll start calling it a Hybrid.


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Originally Posted by 36251
Casio using the "hybrid moniker," IMO, for the knowledgeable digital piano crowd is just a disingenuous way to increase their sales to unsuspectable piano buyers. Hey, my car has a battery, maybe I'll start calling it a Hybrid.

This.

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Originally Posted by WPianoY
I am leaning towards GP310. Does it have the same action as GP510?

It's the exact same action for the two models. The speaker system is supposed to be the same but not sound the same to me at the time I got the GP500 I felt there was a sound difference, but there shouldn't be. The difference is the built-in scene modes. The GP500 and now GP510 has several preconfigured sound scenes, such as Debussy, Satie and other composers. My favorite is the Debussy on the Berlin Grand. Also you can create your own settings and save them. The GP310 does not have the preset scene modes and will not save any custom settings you create. But you may like the factory settings. I made several personal settings by tweaking everything. But thinking back the Debussy setting is the best overall. Due to the pandemic if the shop doesn't have a model on the floor you don't know when one would be available. Good luck and have fun comparing and looking.


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I think the knowledgeable DP crowd knows that want is important is the feeling under its own fingers and won’t be impressed by fancy words. But maybe for the unknowledgeable DP buyer, the Casio has « something like » the N1X which is far more expensive, then the Casio is a good bargain.


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Originally Posted by Tenor1
I played a Casio GP-500 for two years until it was water damaged. Yesterday I received a Kawai NV5 as it's replacement. The NV5 has an upright action and feels completely different to play. I MUCH prefer the Casio simulated grand action and need to adjust to the Kawai.

You prefer the Casio action, because it's a primitive weighted lever like any other folded digital piano action.

And these having nothing to do with grand piano actions.

Quote
But I'm writing to address the escapement issue. After trying DP's with the phony escapement I'd pick the Casio without it because it repeats much faster on the return.

An action without escapement is not a grand piano action.

Quote
The escapement on an acoustic piano allows you to play above the escapement at a lower volume than playing below it.

The escapement of an acoustic piano allows you to throw the hammer without muting the strings in the process. It has no other purpose, really!

About "playing below the escapement": With no hammer to escape, there is no hammer to hit the strings and without strings to hit, there is no tone.

Who teaches you piano?

Quote
Playing above the escapement is a VERY difficult technique to learn (at least for me, lol) and I would say almost all the players on this forum, especially those playing DP's, do NOT have the technique mastered.

You have not mastered this technique either, because this is advanced pianist level stuff, and advanced pianists don't exclusively practice on digital pianos, especially not on a Casio.

In fact what you did is probably just incorrect piano technique for an intermediate player.

It's a like beginner trying to practice half-pedaling on a Roland FP-10.

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Even though the Casio does not have a real escapement or the phony one like other DP's, I could slightly create the affect of playing "above the escapement" on my GP-500. That is the real extraordinary part of the Casio/Bechstein action. Our church has a $25,000 Yamaha digital (sorry I don't know the model number) and it cannot in ANY way create the affect and it has the phony escapement.

You cannot, because you didn't master anything. You played a Casio, learned bad technique doing so and now you have trouble transitioning two other piano instruments, including a real hybrid one.

That is actually a devastating track record for your Casio piano. Because that means Casio destroyed you piano technique. It made you worse at playing the piano! Thank god that thing got destroyed!

Once you master good piano technique (preferably on a real grand piano), you can move to any piano - digital or not, "phony" escapement or not and just execute - with the reliable results. That's how the real world works.


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Originally Posted by 36251
Casio using the "hybrid moniker," IMO, for the knowledgeable digital piano crowd is just a disingenuous way to increase their sales to unsuspectable piano buyers. Hey, my car has a battery, maybe I'll start calling it a Hybrid.

I agree with you but extend the blame of disingenuity to all the makers in various industries of mostly inanimate gear that have benefited from an apparent oxymoronic use of the word - hybrid- the “brid” part which indicates a breed of something crossbred with another something.

In the piano context here it seems at best the breeding of two something elements effectively took place in a piano laboratory .... test tube, eh? ..... or is there a special room .... motel or the like where the acoustic parts and digital parts are left alone so as to familiarize and ultimately consummate the union ? 🥰


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Originally Posted by drewr
..... or is there a special room .... motel or the like where the acoustic parts and digital parts are left alone so as to familiarize and ultimately consummate the union ? 🥰
blush

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You make me look in my Larousse (a famous French dictionary), hybride : cross lineage of animals, of plants, of chemical orbitals, of rocks, or analog/digital computer. I guess the only « (French) hybride » instruments are instruments with both kind of « computation » : typically a DCO - digital controlled odcillator (digital) followed by a VCF - voltage controlled filter (analog). smile


On wiktionary, https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/hybrid there is many domain specific meaning (cars, golf…) I guess that if the digital piano domain was more known, a new definition would be added (English is not a dead language… it evolves).

Last edited by Frédéric L; 09/29/21 02:59 PM.

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Originally Posted by Tenor1
But I'm writing to address the escapement issue. After trying DP's with the phony escapement I'd pick the Casio without it because it repeats much faster on the return. The escapement on an acoustic piano allows you to play above the escapement at a lower volume than playing below it. An example is the left hand playing "p" volume below the escapement and the right hand can play "pp" above the escapement. Playing above a "real" escapement creates a different tone quality as well. Playing above the escapement is a VERY difficult technique to learn (at least for me, lol) and I would say almost all the players on this forum, especially those playing DP's, do NOT have the technique mastered. There are actually very few pieces that I've learned that the technique is really used. ..

Bear with me, most of what i think i might know about the intricacies of AP and DP actions is mostly from months of reading and parsing and sifting through the DP forum.

As such, i understand real, actual AP escapement is when the hammer becomes loosed .... set free from contact with its propelling part[s] .... escaped, to fly and eventually bounce off strings..... sorry to digress but when thinking of being loosed to fly in a piano context, my personal favorite Elton John tune always comes to mind ...... anyway, how does playing softly “above escapement” produce the requisite sound from struck strings on an AP if / when the hammer does not escape so as to fly towards strings?


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Hello,

Originally Posted by WPianoY
I am leaning towards GP310. Does it have the same action as GP510?

Yes it does.

Cheers and happy decision making,

HZ

PS Good thing you seem to be ignoring all the noise (to put it mildly) in this thread and follow your own lead. If I had the budget, I'd be investigating into the 310 too, with its action as the sole priority.

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What the OP needs to know is the real escapement in acoustic pianos has also this fortunate effect to not allow for hammers to constantly push back against your fingers when keys have been played and held at the bottom. On the contrary, all digital pianos suffer from this constant force pushing back against your fingers at all times, however this varies between piano brands and models, depending on the weight of the particular action. Go test pianos and compare digital pianos with acoustic pianos and see whether you can notice it, how big that is and whether it bothers you at all.

Last edited by CyberGene; 09/29/21 04:15 PM.

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