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Originally Posted by JoeT
Yamaha's CFX built into the P-515 is very organic to play. The CFX grand Yamaha used to sample also sounds gorgeous.
At the cost of not having proper pedaling, noise and all the other disadvantages of room sampling.

The obvious advantage of Pianoteq is its unrivaled expressiveness. Yamaha's samples are exceedingly sterile.

Saying Yamaha's samples are organic is like saying organic cold cuts... it's processed to death anyway.


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Originally Posted by Abdol
Originally Posted by JoeT
Yamaha's CFX built into the P-515 is very organic to play. The CFX grand Yamaha used to sample also sounds gorgeous.
At the cost of not having proper pedaling, noise and all the other disadvantages of room sampling.

The obvious advantage of Pianoteq is its unrivaled expressiveness. Yamaha's samples are exceedingly sterile.

Saying Yamaha's samples are organic is like saying organic cold cuts... it's processed to death anyway.

The P-515's expressiveness using the built-in CFX sample is superior to Pianoteq without the need of any curve programming. It's organic in that it responds to touch like a Yamaha grand piano, which I verified by playing one in comparison. I wasn't able to recreate that with Pianoteq 6.

The samples are indeed clean but the timbre is great. I don't care for wet recording samples, when playing live in a room. Recording with microphones would also capture the cabinet and amp response (the P-515 samples are equalized for the built-in amplification).


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I wasn't able to recreate that with Pianoteq 6.


So lets put down a product when you haven't even tried the latest version frown

I do disagree with you though as I think Pianoteq 6 was better then the P515. Version 5 of Pianoteq yep I would agree the P515 wins. See this is all so subjective and you Joe make it like fact. Pianoteq being around for how many years must be doing something right. If the product is not your cup of tea that is fine but other folks like me do think Pianoteq is the real deal.

Peace


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Originally Posted by EPW
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I wasn't able to recreate that with Pianoteq 6.

So lets put down a product when you haven't even tried the latest version frown
I don't own the latest version.


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Pianoteq 7 is heaven.

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Originally Posted by Fleer
Pianoteq 7 is heaven.

But to some it is the opposite of heaven 🙄


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All postings lead to Pianoteq!
I played mine yesterday morn. It sounded terrible. Every voice, every instrument sounded disgusting. Tried another set o' 'phones, still not good so I poked my left ear and slapped my head.
Much better!

Truth was with the 515, pleasant though the Bosie related stuff was, I could never get it to emulate a real piano. Not one little bit! It just did not have it in it, anywhere. and what it did have was a barbecue source flavour over every voice, which i could not remove.
When you get a bit older, you tend to gravitate towards stuff you did as a kid. Model railway, train spotting (loads of steamers in the UK on main lines) push-bikes, and I suppose, the acoustic piano sound and feel you once had then.
One day I'll have that acoustic back.
But PTq is the next best thing imo. And it'll only get better. Just don't be afraid to rweak things. It's fun, and you always can revert back to the start when invariably, you mess up.

Last edited by peterws; 09/29/21 01:52 AM.

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Well, I just tried pianoteq again, with the p515, and not with the ew300, and it was a revelation. Through the better speakers of the p515 it sounds much better. What struck me, however, was the playability. Everything I played just sounded nice, even when using the pedal, so I am sure that it wont help me improve if it makes my life so easy 😆.
Still got the demo though, and, unfortunately, I dont see my buying it, as the cfx in the p515 is lovely, and that would also mean getting a laptop, while funds are limited.

Last edited by Skropi; 09/29/21 05:10 AM.
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My understanding is that by virtue of synthesis, Pianoteq excels in the smoothness of dynamic response and resonance realism, but for many people the timbre leaves something to be desired.

On the other hand - owing to actual audio reproduction, sampled pianos faithfully reproduce the timbre, but due to limitation on # of dynamic layers (top tier products would have 24) bumpy dynamic response (e.g. in a crescendo) is often noticeable, and discerning ears would point out a lack of realism in sustain resonance in the context of real play. I don't know how digital pianos like the P515 fare in this respect.


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Originally Posted by cygnusdei
My understanding is that by virtue of synthesis, Pianoteq excels in the smoothness of dynamic response and resonance realism, but for many people the timbre leaves something to be desired.

On the other hand - owing to actual audio reproduction, sampled pianos faithfully reproduce the timbre, but due to limitation on # of dynamic layers (top tier products would have 24) bumpy dynamic response (e.g. in a crescendo) is often noticeable, and discerning ears would point out a lack of realism in sustain resonance in the context of real play. I don't know how digital pianos like the P515 fare in this respect.
I really dont have the experience to make comparisons, but pianoteq is definitely smoother to play out of the box. I haven't fiddled with p515's settings though, as I am not sure what to tweak.

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I have never heard bumpy dynamic response on a 24 layers VST, excepted in rare VST (Bechstein EWQL, Imperfect Samples). 24 is enough for me, and I have read that VSL virtual pianos are around 60 levels (100 for the Vienna Imperial)


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Indeed.
Originally Posted by EPW
Originally Posted by Fleer
Pianoteq 7 is heaven.
But to some it is the opposite of heaven 🙄
Pianoteq stands as a warning at the gates of h-e-l-l. smile

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Originally Posted by cygnusdei
My understanding is that by virtue of synthesis, Pianoteq excels in the smoothness of dynamic response and resonance realism, but for many people the timbre leaves something to be desired.

My assessment with Ptq's dynamic response is "unrealistic", regardless of how much I edit the curve.

The P-515 CFX on default settings behaves exactly like a Yamaha grand.

Quote
On the other hand - owing to actual audio reproduction, sampled pianos faithfully reproduce the timbre, but due to limitation on # of dynamic layers (top tier products would have 24) bumpy dynamic response (e.g. in a crescendo) is often noticeable, and discerning ears would point out a lack of realism in sustain resonance in the context of real play. I don't know how digital pianos like the P515 fare in this respect.

Yamaha's CFX implementation in the P-515 features multiple sample layers per key blended so smoothly, that some people call it "sterile".

If layer switching is noticeable it's because wet recording samples can't be blended properly. The impression of a smooth crescendo falls apart, because you switch actual recordings with an impulse response of a recording location. In the end faking a piano recording by mixing single note recordings of a real piano is a trick. And sometimes your brain doesn't get fooled by it, even with 24 layers!

(This is not to be confused with entry-level digitals, which all still feature single layer samples, sometimes stretched to several keys. These are not what we measure VSTs against.)


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I don't want to derail the thread from P515, but as far as sampled pianos go it's interesting that different developers choose different tacts in disclosing the specs. I think most developers are coy with respect to # velocity layers (the Yamaha P515 included), some would say the #, but if you look closely it says up to (e.g. "up to 20"), and small minority claims absolute numbers (e.g. "we went crazy and sampled 36 velocity layers per note!"). But at the end of the day, without the scripting sampled pianos are just a pile of audio samples - it's the scripting that animates the beast, hence the point pertaining to dynamic response.

Somewhat relevant: for all the emphasis on # dynamic layers, it seems that owing to tradition, some developers still skimp on the actual number of keys sampled (black keys in the lowest and highest registers do get omitted in the sampling, and therefore reproduced by pitch bending).

https://www.vsl.co.at/community/posts/t53011-Synchron-Pianos-semitone-sampling#post287556


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Originally Posted by JoeT
The P-515's expressiveness using the built-in CFX sample is superior to Pianoteq ...

Your post makes no sense. Samples are all prerecorded and static. There is -0- expressiveness and dynamic control in them.

Expressiveness comes from software emulation in which hardware sucks and specifically VRM in P515 is a child's play.

Pianoteq is physical modeling and RVM is just a stupid joke compared to Pianoteq.

It is impossible to get the same level of feedback you get in Pianoteq from P515. Both the hardware and software in P515 are incapable of delivering it so.


And to make it clear, the same goes for Kawai. Hopefully, you wont misinterpret it. The OP is asking for an honest opinion not fanboy chants.

Last edited by Abdol; 09/29/21 09:35 AM. Reason: misinterpretation removal

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Originally Posted by JoeT
My assessment with Ptq's dynamic response is "unrealistic", regardless of how much I edit the curve.

The P-515 CFX on default settings behaves exactly like a Yamaha grand.

Pianoteq uses accurate physical measurements to calculate the dynamic responses.

How did you come up with your assessment?


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Originally Posted by JoeT
Yamaha's CFX implementation in the P-515 features multiple sample layers per key blended so smoothly, that some people call it "sterile".

If layer switching is noticeable it's because wet recording samples can't be blended properly. The impression of a smooth crescendo falls apart, because you switch actual recordings with an impulse response of a recording location. In the end faking a piano recording by mixing single note recordings of a real piano is a trick. And sometimes your brain doesn't get fooled by it, even with 24 layers!

(This is not to be confused with entry-level digitals, which all still feature single layer samples, sometimes stretched to several keys. These are not what we measure VSTs against.)


My assessment tells me that you know nothing about Pianoteq.

There are no samples in Pianoteq.

Time to beat the dead horse.


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The quote doesn't talk at all about Pianoteq.


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Just an explanation to everyone else:

It's hard to imagine how sterile can be related to layer-blending but a sterile sample simply means free from imperfections. It's impossible to record a perfect sample. Even in multi-million dollar anechoic chambers of Yamaha and Kawai.

The reason is obvious, the instrument itself isn't a perfect instrument and even if we come up with a mechanically perfect one, the resonances in a piano are all chaotic models and equations. Even in the simplest modeling scenario, multi-parameter coupled differential equations pop up.

for 2-3 dimensions these equations are manageable but when we face 88 strings, the body of a piano, and the rest of the parameters, it requires an enormous amount of computing power.

The response and resonances in Pianoteq are complex compared to VRM.


How complex? Here is just one example of what Pianoteq models:

Quote
Realistic sympathetic resonances, including duplex scale



Main features of Yamaha CFX (the actual piano not the samples)

- Hand crafted by elite artisans
- Premium European spruce soundboard
- Individually hand moulded iron frame
- Hand-wound bass strings
- Duplex Scaling
- Ivorite white keys for natural feel
- Also available as Disklavier Enspire

Last edited by Abdol; 09/29/21 10:25 AM.

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Originally Posted by JoeT
The quote doesn't talk at all about Pianoteq.

Qualify your assessment first. We can move on from there.


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