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Peter,
You're right--I missed the OP's bit about using the left pedal.


I think tonal qualities can cross over into action perception. Kawai is known to have a more mellow tone than Yamaha--that could influence perceived touch. A given volume in a given range has that effect, especially if one is used to something else. If it's loud and bright in the melody range, it will seem like the action is "easier to play." The room acoustics might also influence this perception.

Vertical pianos, even modern professional ones, have inherent action compromises. Maybe you can strengthen the hammer return springs in the low tenor where bobbling usually seems the worst. But that will increase downweight. You can get letoff closer, but the hammers are more likely to bobble audibly. You can lighten the damper springs, but you'll have worse damping. Many say modern verticals don't play as well as those of 100 years ago. They might be right.

Grands have fewer of those compromises.

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Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Originally Posted by pianogabe
To the OP: I have a K300 and regularly play a K500, and the K500 is too heavy for me. I don't think it is a regulation issue in this case, but just the way the action is designed.

Although I don’t doubt your experience at all, it’s not the greatest idea to make a sweeping generalization based on a sample size of one.

True, but I said I think it is, not that I know it is, nor that the thinking is just based on that experience.

Others who played both or can compare the K500 with other uprights can chime in and perhaps we will get somewhere in answering the OP's question if the K500 is normally on the heavy side. I am very interested in this topic and curious what the opinion of the technician will be after (s)he looked at it. If the OP's K500 can be made lighter by regulating it, I would be **very** interested in hearing this.

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Quote
When you bought the piano did you pick one from the showroom? Some people would insist on getting the exact same piano they played on. But I guess you decided on a model/finish and they delivered one such item from the warehouse.
I bought the same piano from the showroom.


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Originally Posted by P W Grey
The "soft" (left) pedal pushes the hammers about halfway to the strings therefore taking have the powered trajectory out of the stroke.

The "damper" (right) or "sustain" pedal takes all the dampers out of the keystroke so you neither lift dampers or push against their springs (at full pedal depression). You can play with this by partial pedaling and see if you notice a difference.

The bobbling of hammers on soft stroke is something I've noticed on more than one K series piano. I was once instructed by the service dept to back the action supports out one full turn (though that did not solve the problem) which brings the center of gravity out slightly away from the strings. This tells me that the real problem is built right into the action (hammers are much too heavy for the standard geometry). Ed McMorrow has pointed this fact out numerous times.

Now that I have my self adhesive motorcycle wheel weights I would pop one on to the top of the catcher and see if that made any difference. If so, it would confirm the COG theory and point to a possible cure. If not, then were back to square one.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

I have experimented with partial pedaling in my attempts to understand what's happening, and it does improve things slightly with the pedal lightly pressed. This obviously isn't a long-term solution but it does help me understand the mechanics of how the action is behaving.

Your comment about motorcylce wheel weights is intruiging, I'll have to try that if I'm still having issues after the next tech visit. The hammer bobbling isn't necessarily only occurring on soft strokes. Sometimes a single note will sound "off" or "stick out" while I'm playing, and it's after playing those notes in isolation that I've discovered the obvious bobbling. Hopefully that makes sense.


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Originally Posted by JerryFan2000
Exact the same feeling i had with my K300 especially the missed note problem. I hired a technician to do a full regulation for me at the end to solve the problem partially. My feeling is that the Kawai's upright action is just easier to produce missed note than Yamaha. You really need to have the right technique to avoid missed note problem. I never have the problem when I was playing on my teacher's Yamaha B1. For playing pp,ppp, you just need to have the right technique and then you should be able to do it easily.

I do agree that adjusting technique could be a possible solution, but that's not going to work for me. I've been playing for 30+ years and have good (enough cool ) technique that translates well on other pianos, so if that ends up being the only solution I'd probably just sell the piano and get something else. Overall I'm not too worried about that happening though. The main issue is really the inconsistency which points to various regulation problems but we'll see what happens. I get what you mean though, thanks for the suggestion.


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Originally Posted by Ben_NZ
My K500 will be 8 years old next month, and I've never asked for it to be regulated. I'm a self-taught amateur whose opinion should be discarded, but..
  • I've experienced the missed notes. Solution: depress the key right to the bottom of its travel or use the soft pedal.
  • I've experienced the bobbling. Solution: depress the key faster and to the end of its travel, or use the soft pedal. There's often a sort of sticking point I can feel at the halfway point of the key travel, and if I press the key to/through this halfway point at the right speed, the jack is not out from underneath the hammer butt and the hammer can bounce off the jack again. I've only noticed this with the lower tenor notes, so if it's not a wear/regulation issue, perhaps it may relate to hammer weight?


Quote
Action is much lighter and more responsive when using the soft pedal; in fact, most of these problems disappear when using the soft pedal.
Exactly. This validates my bad habit of always playing with the soft pedal down. Not only is the noise level more tolerable, the piano is easier to control. wink

Can you explain what you mean by uneven scale dynamics/timing and weird, less-dynamic timbre? Which parts of the scale do you find this on?

What I mean by uneven scale dynamics/timing is that I can play a basic scale (key or directon doesn't matter) and if I use the soft pedal, the action responds as expected in a fluid and consistent manner. To be more specific, if I'm crescendo'ing a 16th-note scale then I get a crescendo result in even 16th-note timing. With no soft pedal, the behavior isn't nearly as consistent. It's like certain keys are mechanically falling behind others which manifests as uneven timing and/or dynamics. Hopefully that makes sense. I haven't experienced this on a piano before and I've been playing for a long time.

I appreciate the workaround solutions suggested, but I'd rather that it just function properly smile
Cheers!


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The felt on a new piano compresses with hours of playing and this is sufficient to cause the problems you have described. Also it is possible that the piano has been subject to a humidity change that is markedly different to when it was factory or dealer regulated.
So you like me have the Reblitz book. Have you checked the basic regulation steps? Hammer distance of 1-3/4", minimum capstan clearance, let-off of 1/8", back check distance of 5/8" after a medium blow?
Here is the Kawai upright piano regulation manual:
https://kawaius.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Kawai-Upright-Piano-Regulation-Manual.pdf
Hope this helps,
Ian


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Originally Posted by Beemer
The felt on a new piano compresses with hours of playing and this is sufficient to cause the problems you have described. Also it is possible that the piano has been subject to a humidity change that is markedly different to when it was factory or dealer regulated.
So you like me have the Reblitz book. Have you checked the basic regulation steps? Hammer distance of 1-3/4", minimum capstan clearance, let-off of 1/8", back check distance of 5/8" after a medium blow?
Here is the Kawai upright piano regulation manual:
https://kawaius.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Kawai-Upright-Piano-Regulation-Manual.pdf
Hope this helps,
Ian

This makes sense, thanks for the insights. I think I have a humidity sensor laying around somewhere so I might as well start monitoring the levels.

I have gone through both resources you mentioned and the regulation steps make sense in my head, but since I'm not a technician I don't really plan on doing any regulation stuff on my own...at least not on this piano. My main goal right now is to learn as much as possible so I can communicate issues more effectively with my technician. That said, the more I learn about the science/art of piano maintenance, the more tempted I am to buy a cheap upright just to experiment with regulation, tuning, etc.

I do feel quite a bit more at ease thanks to everyone's helpful comments. Overall the piano really is great and I've enjoyed it so far, despite the sporadic issues. We'll see what happens in the coming weeks as I continue to break it in.


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I've had a K200 for 5 years and it's exactly as you describe (soft pedal and all). Heavier than usual action and basically impossible to play quietly. I've since upgraded to have a 2nd piano (a grand) so I don't really think about it anymore. I've asked 2 different techs if the action can be lightened and they basically said "This is how this action is.." At the time I chose it, I was super inexperienced with acoustic pianos so I didn't really think much of it and just went with it. But knowing its limitations, it's still an enjoyable piano to own.

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Originally Posted by dusty1920
I've had a K200 for 5 years and it's exactly as you describe (soft pedal and all). Heavier than usual action and basically impossible to play quietly. I've since upgraded to have a 2nd piano (a grand) so I don't really think about it anymore. I've asked 2 different techs if the action can be lightened and they basically said "This is how this action is.." At the time I chose it, I was super inexperienced with acoustic pianos so I didn't really think much of it and just went with it. But knowing its limitations, it's still an enjoyable piano to own.

Thanks for sharing your experience. As I continue to spend more time with the piano, I'm discovering that the most glaring issues are more like isolated anomalies vs problems with the entire action. I do still feel that the action is on the heavier or firmer side of the spectrum, but it's not a dealbreaker for me. I'm confident that there's an attainable sweet spot for this piano, I just have to be more patient...the struggle is real though crazy

All that aside, the quality of tone that this piano is able to achieve is really nice. I'm really enjoying it.


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Originally Posted by dusty1920
I've had a K200 for 5 years and it's exactly as you describe (soft pedal and all). Heavier than usual action and basically impossible to play quietly. I've since upgraded to have a 2nd piano (a grand) so I don't really think about it anymore. I've asked 2 different techs if the action can be lightened and they basically said "This is how this action is.." At the time I chose it, I was super inexperienced with acoustic pianos so I didn't really think much of it and just went with it. But knowing its limitations, it's still an enjoyable piano to own.

There are limitations to what can be done. Most of us are not interested in messing with touchweight on a new(ish) piano. We say: "if you don't like it why did you buy it?" Yes, I understand there are extenuating circumstances.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor


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Hi dusty. Sent you a pm.

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Originally Posted by mididev
Originally Posted by dusty1920
I've had a K200 for 5 years and it's exactly as you describe (soft pedal and all). Heavier than usual action and basically impossible to play quietly. I've since upgraded to have a 2nd piano (a grand) so I don't really think about it anymore. I've asked 2 different techs if the action can be lightened and they basically said "This is how this action is.." At the time I chose it, I was super inexperienced with acoustic pianos so I didn't really think much of it and just went with it. But knowing its limitations, it's still an enjoyable piano to own.

Thanks for sharing your experience. As I continue to spend more time with the piano, I'm discovering that the most glaring issues are more like isolated anomalies vs problems with the entire action. I do still feel that the action is on the heavier or firmer side of the spectrum, but it's not a dealbreaker for me. I'm confident that there's an attainable sweet spot for this piano, I just have to be more patient...the struggle is real though crazy

All that aside, the quality of tone that this piano is able to achieve is really nice. I'm really enjoying it.


I think what you are experiencing is completely normal for a new piano. When purchased our K800 was superbly prepped with a really fluid and even action but, six months down the line as it adjusted to the different humidity, we had three or four of the keys eased where the bushings had swelled and tightened a little so that playing ppp they occasionally stuck or at least felt stiffer. The piano has been remarkably stable though and even in the first year has only needed tuning twice, most pianos do seem go through some sort of adjustment, somewhere in the action, as they settle down.

The action on your K500 might be a little heavier in the initial down weight compared to some other pianos (that's something I like myself but others may not) but it should be really light and fluid throughout the keystroke beyond that initial resistance - if it isn't and you feel resistance, especially inconsistent resistance, when playing there is probably something needing adjustment at your next service.

Last edited by gwing; 09/28/21 06:48 AM.
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This is an interesting thread. I'm surprised to hear any dissatisfaction with the Kawai. My $0.02: I had a K-2 that was purchased new. And was lucky enough to have an excellent technician. I never noticed any problems playing pp or issues with the action. She really had that piano playing and sounding great. My lessons were sometimes on a K-3 or K-5. I did prefer the K-3 a bit.

If I was as smart as I think I am, I'd still be happily plinking away on that K-2 (and have a slightly bigger bank account). Full disclosure: I'm a real hack.


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I have played two K500's a while back and really liked the piano.The touch was was fine actually rather responsive. .Perhaps I never played anything very soft but there was no bobbling of any hammers.
I did notice bobbling on a few new upright which I played at a different store.When I tried a 130 or the 132 Schimmel I could play very softly without any such problem.Actually I lifted the lid of the piano and looked at the hammers and they seemed fairly small compared to a few of the other uprights I tried. A
I was really quite impressed with the piano.I never tried the K500 on that day.The solution to the problems you have experienced is having the piano well regulated.

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This is the first time I have read about all these problems on a K500 piano so perhaps you bought a lemon but I really think the problem has to with a change of humidity and the piano being quite new.The key resistance on different brands is just different and I find it difficult to believe that you cannot get used to the difference and still play expressively.

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Vertical pianos, even modern professional ones, have inherent action compromises. Maybe you can strengthen the hammer return springs in the low tenor where bobbling usually seems the worst. But that will increase downweight. You can get letoff closer, but the hammers are more likely to bobble audibly. You can lighten the damper springs, but you'll have worse damping. Many say modern verticals don't play as well as those of 100 years ago. They might be right.

Grands have fewer of those compromises.[/quote]

I do not agree with you.I have played many Japanese uprights, I also have played some of the very best tperformance uprights costing $$$$$ and no the bobbling was not a major issue.Sometimes it would happen on a particular note but never even when playing ppp have I experienced bobbling as a persistent problem, not even on tall uprights.

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Originally Posted by gwing
Originally Posted by mididev
Originally Posted by dusty1920
I've had a K200 for 5 years and it's exactly as you describe (soft pedal and all). Heavier than usual action and basically impossible to play quietly. I've since upgraded to have a 2nd piano (a grand) so I don't really think about it anymore. I've asked 2 different techs if the action can be lightened and they basically said "This is how this action is.." At the time I chose it, I was super inexperienced with acoustic pianos so I didn't really think much of it and just went with it. But knowing its limitations, it's still an enjoyable piano to own.

Thanks for sharing your experience. As I continue to spend more time with the piano, I'm discovering that the most glaring issues are more like isolated anomalies vs problems with the entire action. I do still feel that the action is on the heavier or firmer side of the spectrum, but it's not a dealbreaker for me. I'm confident that there's an attainable sweet spot for this piano, I just have to be more patient...the struggle is real though crazy

All that aside, the quality of tone that this piano is able to achieve is really nice. I'm really enjoying it.


I think what you are experiencing is completely normal for a new piano. When purchased our K800 was superbly prepped with a really fluid and even action but, six months down the line as it adjusted to the different humidity, we had three or four of the keys eased where the bushings had swelled and tightened a little so that playing ppp they occasionally stuck or at least felt stiffer. The piano has been remarkably stable though and even in the first year has only needed tuning twice, most pianos do seem go through some sort of adjustment, somewhere in the action, as they settle down.

The action on your K500 might be a little heavier in the initial down weight compared to some other pianos (that's something I like myself but others may not) but it should be really light and fluid throughout the keystroke beyond that initial resistance - if it isn't and you feel resistance, especially inconsistent resistance, when playing there is probably something needing adjustment at your next service.

Thanks for sharing your experience with your K800. Your description of the action is what I've been experiencing and learning over the past week. Overall the action is very fluid and I particularly like how responsive the keys are up and down the length of the key. Thanks to everyone's helpful thoughts I have a much more practical perspective compared to before. The actual issues seem minor and fixable with some regulation work, and the rest I can accept as being part of the settling in process.

On a related note, while playing on the piano in the showroom I think I inadvertently used the soft pedal much more than I normally would (thanks to Ondine and Une barque sur l'ocean). I played other stuff too but playing the Ravel on the K500 sold me immediately. Now that I've had a few weeks to play a wider variety of repertoire, my observation is that the action's "heaviness" is always exaggerated after using the soft pedal for an extended amount of time. It's still surprising that the contrast is so noticeable, but it doesn't take too long for the action to feel normal again sans soft pedal. So I'm sure there's some psychological/perceptual stuff going on in addition to the mechnical.

Next on the list is to experiment with some more acoustic treatment and maybe some different locations in the room. We'll see what happens.


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Originally Posted by tre corda
I have played two K500's a while back and really liked the piano.The touch was was fine actually rather responsive. .Perhaps I never played anything very soft but there was no bobbling of any hammers.
I did notice bobbling on a few new upright which I played at a different store.When I tried a 130 or the 132 Schimmel I could play very softly without any such problem.Actually I lifted the lid of the piano and looked at the hammers and they seemed fairly small compared to a few of the other uprights I tried. A
I was really quite impressed with the piano.I never tried the K500 on that day.The solution to the problems you have experienced is having the piano well regulated.

I agree it is an impressive piano! I did take some slow motion video of some of the hammer bobbling so it's pretty interesting to watch. But you're right, I think a proper regulation will be very helpful. I get that I'm probably scrutinizing things more than the average person, but despite all that nitpicky stuff I'm actually really enjoying the piano.

Cheers!


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I bought an upright Petrof 125 cm (used, 40 years old) which my tuner tuned and regulated, however it had all the problems that you described. Uneven feel on the keys, hard to play pp, hammer bobbling and heavy touch.
I did address all of this problems with regulation.
For the heaviness: My Petrof lifted the dampers instantly after the key was pressed. This makes the action heavier. The dampers should be lifting up when the key is pressed halfway through. Regulating the dampers will solve the problem. To test it out, just press the damper pedal halfway (observe the dampers to be lifted halfway, not fully). If the action becomes lighter and you are content with it, then regulating the dampers will solve the problem. Damper lifting timing consistency is also very crucial for evenness of the touch.
For PP: adjust the let off closer to the strings, regulate them evenly.
For the overall even feel: All dampers should be regulated the same, let off should be regulated the same, key height should be exactly the same, key travel should be exactly the same and key dip should be all exactly the same. This will give you the evenness, unless key weights/hammer weights or spring resistances are messed up.
Key dip is also important for general velocity. Mine had 11-12mm which was too much and making it 10.5 mm made a huge difference.

As for bobbling, I could not yet help it. The problem with bobbling is, that there is a slight resistance on the feel of the key at the point when the jack gets out of the hammer butt. You stop pressing further because of that and it results in the hammer butt hitting back on the unescaped jack and hammer hitting the string again.
What might help is making this resistance unnoticeable by lubricating, which I had not really tried. I have yet to find a solution for mine.

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