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Originally Posted by Sidokar
Originally Posted by Qazsedcft
Originally Posted by ranjit
You should really look at some online teacher from Canada or Europe. You can get someone good enough to play a Rachmaninoff concerto for 50$ an hour or so, from what I've seen. In the US, in your situation, you'll be paying much more for quite a bit less, given your situation. If you can trust yourself to pay attention, they can be very effective.
Youtube celebrities like Josh Wright are quite a bit more expensive (his rate was USD$ 200/hour last I checked) but in general I agree with you that private online lessons are definitely the best option in this situation. You have basically the whole world to choose from and it can be nearly as effective as in person. I think this is much better than a video course with no feedback or only limited 1 on 1 feedback.


In Europe,the rates are very variable. It depends who and where. Teachers in large cities tends to be more expensive. More experienced teachers are more expensive. You can get students lessons for as low as 25 euros outside large cities. Average rate would be 35 to 50 euros. But more experienced teachers in large cities would go up to 70-100 euros per hour. But certainly it is unecessary to spend 200 $.

We know there is medical tourism, wellness tourism and now there will be piano learning tourism. laugh

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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Simple zoom connection is so quick I can't imagine what kind of latency problem you're thinking of.
Honestly, this is ridiculous. It takes 0.5-1 seconds for your voice and video to be transmitted. This is considerable latency, and doesn't allow anything to be done synchronously. And the reason isn't just a technology issue, it's also a fundamental physical limitation.

Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Things like immediate feedback with a teacher who knows what they are talking about or technical demonstrations have absolutely nothing to do with whether the lesson is in person or remote.
Again, latency, watching what the person is doing in three dimensions, etc. makes a difference in some scenarios.

Originally Posted by pianoloverus
What you describe about audio technology, if it even exists, is so refined that it wouldn't matter for 99% of those taking lessons. There are certainly YT examples of teachers giving online lessons that show that any problems with online lessons are very minor if they exist at all.
I doubt it. It's very difficult to convey what a good tone means in person, let alone over a video call. I can guarantee that a student would progress faster along those dimensions with lessons in person with an actual teacher (they have to be competent).

The difference in audio quality is evident. I could notice the difference in sound quality although I was using my headphones, and my teacher had a good mic. I'm not sure what you think should be taught in a lesson, but I think the most important are all of these subtle things which are hard to notice by the student. Anyone can assign a Hanon exercise a week, that is not teaching.

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Originally Posted by ranjit
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Simple zoom connection is so quick I can't imagine what kind of latency problem you're thinking of.
Honestly, this is ridiculous. It takes 0.5-1 seconds for your voice and video to be transmitted. This is considerable latency, and doesn't allow anything to be done synchronously. And the reason isn't just a technology issue, it's also a fundamental physical limitation.

Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Things like immediate feedback with a teacher who knows what they are talking about or technical demonstrations have absolutely nothing to do with whether the lesson is in person or remote.
Again, latency, watching what the person is doing in three dimensions, etc. makes a difference in some scenarios.

Originally Posted by pianoloverus
What you describe about audio technology, if it even exists, is so refined that it wouldn't matter for 99% of those taking lessons. There are certainly YT examples of teachers giving online lessons that show that any problems with online lessons are very minor if they exist at all.
I doubt it. It's very difficult to convey what a good tone means in person, let alone over a video call. I can guarantee that a student would progress faster along those dimensions with lessons in person with an actual teacher (they have to be competent).

The difference in audio quality is evident. I could notice the difference in sound quality although I was using my headphones, and my teacher had a good mic. I'm not sure what you think should be taught in a lesson, but I think the most important are all of these subtle things which are hard to notice by the student. Anyone can assign a Hanon exercise a week, that is not teaching.
1. Even if the latency is 1 second as you claim, there is no need for the teacher's comments to occur while the student is playing. A student can play a phrase and then the teacher can comment.
2. Your last paragraph seems to be talking about the most advanced level student where the most subtle discussion of tone could be relevant. I think just a decent set up would be fine for the overwhelming percent of students.
3. I never said that remote learning is as good as in person. I don't think anyone on PW has ever said that. I think it's more than adequate for most.
4. i never said a teacher should just assign a Hanon exercise and that was good teaching or anything like that.

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1. Not true in all cases, but true for many situations. There are places where it's necessary, or at least much faster.

2. I think most good teachers often develop these things from the start.

3. Glad we agree on that.

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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Simple zoom connection is so quick I can't imagine what kind of latency problem you're thinking of. Even if there was a delay of a second I can't imagine how it could be a serious problem. Things like immediate feedback with a teacher who knows what they are talking about or technical demonstrations have absolutely nothing to do with whether the lesson is in person or remote. What you describe about audio technology, if it even exists, is so refined that it wouldn't matter for 99% of those taking lessons. There are certainly YT examples of teachers giving online lessons that show that any problems with online lessons are very minor if they exist at all.

Pianoloverus, are you writing from experience, taking or giving piano lessons over Zoom? Or is this hypothetical, how you think things should work in theory? I'm expecting the latter, but I may be wrong which is why I am asking.

I have worked with a teacher over the various platforms as they came up - something, Skype, Zoom. There are numerous difficulties:

- sound distorts as you play, some days more than others
- If you play, and the teacher says "stop", you won't hear it, because two sides cannot transmit at the same time. Hand signals - or agreeing beforehand when to stop - get arranged.
- If there is a timing issue, your teacher cannot clap or count along with the student.
- Delay and distortion are a serious enough problem that several apps got developed where you play the other person's piano virtually, meaning digital signals get transmitted directly, instead of being transformed from sound into digital and back into (distorted) sound. I tested a beta app with a fellow student earlier this year. Both of us were hoping to make lessons easier with our respective teachers.

If your only experience comes from YT examples, be aware that they would put out the best from their batch. Some of us have experienced remote lessons first hand.

Obviously I'm not against remote lessons since I'm learning remotely. A good teacher is worth working with even if technology makes things less than idea. There are also supplementary things you can do, such as sending recorded videos and audio files, where there is no distortion.

A good teacher under suboptimal conditions trumps an iffy teacher under perfect conditions. The best of worlds is the good teacher under good conditions, with an attentive student who knows how to take advantage of it. The world seldom works that ideally.

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keystring -- Very well explained. Audio, dynamic range in particular, tend to distort significantly. And practically, you are unlikely to hear much more than the very basics of the piano tone over an actual online call given the sound quality.

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Originally Posted by keystring
- sound distorts as you play, some days more than others
- If you play, and the teacher says "stop", you won't hear it, because two sides cannot transmit at the same time. Hand signals - or agreeing beforehand when to stop - get arranged.
- If there is a timing issue, your teacher cannot clap or count along with the student.
- Delay and distortion are a serious enough problem that several apps got developed where you play the other person's piano virtually, meaning digital signals get transmitted directly, instead of being transformed from sound into digital and back into (distorted) sound.
I didn't know things are so bad. Particularly if a teacher can't comment while student is playing I think it significantly diminishes lesson efficiency.

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I would assume that variability in network latency can even distort the rhythm so that a teacher does not hear exactly what is played if listening in real time.

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Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
Originally Posted by keystring
- sound distorts as you play, some days more than others
- If you play, and the teacher says "stop", you won't hear it, because two sides cannot transmit at the same time. Hand signals - or agreeing beforehand when to stop - get arranged.
- If there is a timing issue, your teacher cannot clap or count along with the student.
- Delay and distortion are a serious enough problem that several apps got developed where you play the other person's piano virtually, meaning digital signals get transmitted directly, instead of being transformed from sound into digital and back into (distorted) sound.
I didn't know things are so bad. Particularly if a teacher can't comment while student is playing I think it significantly diminishes lesson efficiency.

I have never heard of this. I have used many apps such skype, zoom, go to meeting, facetime and never heard of any of them not letting each person transmit at the same time. That would be huge issue for any meeting and would not make sense. If any meeting app you're using is doing this I would suggest you contact support as that's not expected behavior.

Agree there can be distortion on rare occasion but not to the point where it would impact learning. I think some people are over thinking this. If you have a decent internet connection remote lessons can work great. Sure it can have some hiccups but so can in person lessons.


Originally Posted by Sweelinck
I would assume that variability in network latency can even distort the rhythm so that a teacher does not hear exactly what is played if listening in real time.

If there is latency wouldn't it be relative? Or are you saying the latency varies so much note to note? I don't think this would impact the lessons that much. So much learning is done remote now and it has worked great for many students.


Originally Posted by ranjit
keystring -- Very well explained. Audio, dynamic range in particular, tend to distort significantly. And practically, you are unlikely to hear much more than the very basics of the piano tone over an actual online call given the sound quality.

Sure and I bet this would not impact 99% of piano students. You can hear plenty of tones and dynamics through video. I dont know what apps or computers you use where everything distorts so much and you can't hear or talk at the same time. I'm not saying one learning style is better. I'm simply saying that remote can work great for almost anyone and is better than not playing or learning at all. It's also preference I learn much better remote as it's let's stress (no commute to lesson) and more enjoyable for me. I feel it's common on these threads where members call out some extreme edge cases that are typically not relevant to most.

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Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
I didn't know things are so bad. Particularly if a teacher can't comment while student is playing I think it significantly diminishes lesson efficiency.

There are workarounds, and there is a need for workarounds. But I guess in every circumstance one tries to optimize things. Actually I'm not sure that I'd want comments whlle I'm playing, but I do remember, for example, in my in-studio lessons (other instrument) years ago, the teacher would tap or stamp his foot if the timing started to go off. That is impossible.

Some workarounds are to also send recordings and video recordings. The teacher can do likewise. Some teachers will create a collection of reference videos for things they commonly teach. Well Dr. Mortensen, who teaches in live classes, nonetheless has his many useful reference videos up. (Some elements of on-line also merge with elements of in-studio).

Re: sound distortion - we've tested things from time to time. In a chord or interval, you might hear one of the notes above or below the actual note. (Say you play G5 C4, but the other person hears C4 G4). If you're aware of that, and the teacher says "play chord X", then you both agree that you are to play it arpeggiated, so that which notes are being played are clearly heard without distortion. In fact, it becomes automatic. Ofc, the app that lets you "play the other person's piano virtually" would get rid of that particular problem.

We could also list the disadvantages of in-studio lessons. Fighting traffic and being frazzled by the time you arrive. Long travel times if the good teacher is far away. One of you being sick but getting together anyway. Limited choice of teachers (or students, for the teacher), for "good matches".

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Originally Posted by Sebs
I have never heard of this. I have used many apps such skype, zoom, go to meeting, facetime and never heard of any of them not letting each person transmit at the same time. That would be huge issue for any meeting and would not make sense. If any meeting app you're using is doing this I would suggest you contact support as that's not expected behavior.
In a meeting where people talk, you take turns talking. That is how conversations and discussions work. This particular aspect gets discussed, and it is how the technology works.
Quote
Agree there can be distortion on rare occasion but not to the point where it would impact learning. I think some people are over thinking this.
I tend to hate the word "overthink". wink If you're a worry wart and speculate on 1000 possibilities so that you never emark on anything, sure, that's an overthink. If you check the weather, rain is forecast, and you bring an umbrella, that's not an overthink. But if you are reporting EXPERIENCES, that is not an overthink at all. It's experiences. You don't "think" experiences - you experience them.

Quote
t's also preference I learn much better remote as it's let's stress (no commute to lesson) and more enjoyable for me. I feel it's common on these threads where members call out some extreme edge cases that are typically not relevant to most.

I also have on-line lessons, and prefer the fact of choice of teacher, and also not having to spend the time commuting. But it is also good for people to know the hiccups so that you can prepare for them. For example, arranging to send sound or video files, so as to hear and see the fine points. It's like taking along that umbrella.

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Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
I didn't know things are so bad. Particularly if a teacher can't comment while student is playing I think it significantly diminishes lesson efficiency.

There are workarounds, and there is a need for workarounds. But I guess in every circumstance one tries to optimize things. Actually I'm not sure that I'd want comments whlle I'm playing, but I do remember, for example, in my in-studio lessons (other instrument) years ago, the teacher would tap or stamp his foot if the timing started to go off. That is impossible.

Some workarounds are to also send recordings and video recordings. The teacher can do likewise. Some teachers will create a collection of reference videos for things they commonly teach. Well Dr. Mortensen, who teaches in live classes, nonetheless has his many useful reference videos up. (Some elements of on-line also merge with elements of in-studio).

Re: sound distortion - we've tested things from time to time. In a chord or interval, you might hear one of the notes above or below the actual note. (Say you play G5 C4, but the other person hears C4 G4). If you're aware of that, and the teacher says "play chord X", then you both agree that you are to play it arpeggiated, so that which notes are being played are clearly heard without distortion. In fact, it becomes automatic. Ofc, the app that lets you "play the other person's piano virtually" would get rid of that particular problem.

We could also list the disadvantages of in-studio lessons. Fighting traffic and being frazzled by the time you arrive. Long travel times if the good teacher is far away. One of you being sick but getting together anyway. Limited choice of teachers (or students, for the teacher), for "good matches".

I understand. I agree that we could list off pros and cons to both sides. We probably also forget that having a good teacher is such a treat regardless of in person or remote.

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Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by Sebs
I have never heard of this. I have used many apps such skype, zoom, go to meeting, facetime and never heard of any of them not letting each person transmit at the same time. That would be huge issue for any meeting and would not make sense. If any meeting app you're using is doing this I would suggest you contact support as that's not expected behavior.
In a meeting where people talk, you take turns talking. That is how conversations and discussions work. This particular aspect gets discussed, and it is how the technology works.
I know that, at least I think I do but that can go out the window sometimes laugh I was referring to when you said "it wont let two transmit at the same time" as it absolutely should. The technology will let anyone talk at anytime, there is no limit on who can transmit and when. If you're playing a song and the teacher wants to chime and say "wait please stop there" you will still hear it. Zoom will still transmit your piano playing and the the teacher talking at the same time. That's what i was referring to as I never heard of any needing hand signals to get the other person to stop so they could talk.

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You all are going a little overboard on online lesson bashing I think. As a music producer during covid I have had to collaborate online and yes the major issue is latency. But if you minimize it how you can on your end (using a good audio interface, using a wired connection and not wifi, using headphones instead of monitors, etc.) then the issues are not so bad and even collaborating with a drummer is possible in about a 250mile radius depending on the quality of the internet connections. Software is getting better all the time, especially in the last year--if you use zoom sure the audio quality is not going to be great, but there is dedicated music collaboration software where this is not a problem. People can even do near-realtime mastering with lossless audio quality when mastering albums for clients etc.

I just wanted to know what options were available to me since in-person lessons are not. But here I am still getting told to take in-person lessons. Now there is an entire page about all the problems (real or imagined) with online lessons....

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Originally Posted by HBIII
I just wanted to know what options were available to me since in-person lessons are not. But here I am still getting told to take in-person lessons. Now there is an entire page about all the problems (real or imagined) with online lessons....
I certainly did not say that. I joined a discussion about what one encounters, but also what we do to overcome them. I have only worked remotely with teachers for a decade. The in-person lessons that I did take for the first instrument where I ever had lessons, were a disaster, because of what was taught and how. The quality of the teacher, a "good fit" to your needs, are paramount. The chances of that happening are much greater if you are not restricted to your own local area.

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Originally Posted by HBIII
...... but there is dedicated music collaboration software where this is not a problem..
Tell us more. smile (If too OT for this thread, a new thread for it?)

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Originally Posted by HBIII
I just wanted to know what options were available to me since in-person lessons are not. But here I am still getting told to take in-person lessons. Now there is an entire page about all the problems (real or imagined) with online lessons....
I think you're taking this the wrong way. This whole conversation is just a typical internet argument for sake of argument between stubborn people who have some point to prove. I think online lessons are definitely the best available option in your situation.

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Originally Posted by HBIII
I just wanted to know what options were available to me since in-person lessons are not. But here I am still getting told to take in-person lessons. Now there is an entire page about all the problems (real or imagined) with online lessons....
Don't take all the comments here so personally! We were discussing general issues with online lessons. Many of the people here, myself included, have taken online lessons with great success, so there's nothing to worry about.

If you're an audio engineer, I'm sure you'll be able to get yourself a good setup, however it might be difficult to find a teacher willing to take the effort and expense of doing so as well. I'm aware of the software people are using for jamming online. Most teachers will probably use zoom, though.

However, headphones and microphones usually don't sound the same as a live instrument, even professional recordings don't quite get pianos right. I got myself $100 headphones and a DAC, and I've actually seen people use the exact same headphones for mastering, so they are not bad at all. However, it just isn't the same. It might not matter that much at the beginning, but it will if you are at a higher level, or are aspiring for perfection (which can even be done at the start).

Here's my advice for you: learn from the best teacher you can find online and afford, research how to find one of them. Ask around at your local university. I've found that you really need to search for the best teacher you can find if you want great online lessons. They need to be able to see and understand precisely what you're doing even when they are at a disadvantage, so they need very good powers of observation (they are out there though). I would personally prefer biweekly lessons with an exceptional teacher over weekly lessons with someone cheaper, especially if it's online. Online lessons are probably 70-80% as effective as in person lessons, there are things you miss but you will still gain a lot.

I'm not one to discourage people to learn unconventionally lol, I was self-taught up to about a grade 8 standard myself.

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Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by HBIII
...... but there is dedicated music collaboration software where this is not a problem..
Tell us more. smile (If too OT for this thread, a new thread for it?)
Jamulus is the one I've heard of.

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Originally Posted by Sebs
If there is latency wouldn't it be relative? Or are you saying the latency varies so much note to note? I don't think this would impact the lessons that much. So much learning is done remote now and it has worked great for many students.

Network latency is not constant over time. It depends on other internet traffic on the particular internet infrastructure being used by the connection. It could vary with each packet of data transmitted. Audio and media players have to use look-ahead buffering at the player side to smooth it out. Perhaps the modes are that it either doesn't vary enough to matter or becomes severe enough that the listener knows it is happening. It also may be that assessing subtle aspects of phrasing and articulation is not possible.

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