2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
73 members (CyberGene, clothearednincompo, CraiginNZ, Ben_NZ, brennbaer, audiophon, Colin Miles, 11 invisible), 1,161 guests, and 560 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
#3158087 09/20/21 12:05 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,431
2000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,431
I'm wondering if there is a general rule for how the tempo should be kept through meter changes. For instance, I played a piece that had 7/8 time (3+4) and then when the meter changed to 6/8 I played it so that the 8th notes remained at a constant tempo but played one less per measure. That is usually how I deal with changing meters. However, just now I sight read some music that had a change of meter from 3/4 to 6/8 and that left me perplexed. Should I play it so that the 8th notes remain constant or should I play it so that each beat is constant (in which case 6/8 would feel faster). I decided for the later but I don't know that it's the correct way. I played a bunch of pieces with frequent meter changes but I never learned any rule that says how the tempo should be kept. I guess I always relied on my teacher or my ears.

(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 413
J
Full Member
Online Embarrased
Full Member
J
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 413
Unless it's indicated otherwise, I think it's generally assumed that the 8th note would remain constant.

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,422
N
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,422
Eighths remain constant - this is half the truth. In addition to the meter designation, there is an element called a groove. My personal definition of it: rhythmic tendencies as a result of a system of external and internal accents in rhythm. Therefore, it is impossible to define the 6/8 meter as [7/8 -1], these are two different accentuation and two completely different grooves.
Because I bring up rhythmic feeling through prosody, not through counting; then it will sound like this:
(7/8 = 3 + 4) takita-takatiki, (6/8 = 3 + 3) takita-tukita, (6/8 = 2 + 2 + 2) taka-tiki-taka. The main thing is to pronounce the syllables at a constant pace.

Last edited by Nahum; 09/20/21 01:11 PM.
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 8,885
Silver Subscriber
8000 Post Club Member
Offline
Silver Subscriber
8000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 8,885
Yes, the 8th notes remain constant. It is the beat that is stressed that changes: in 3/4, it is the first beat. In 6/8 , Beats 1 and 4 are stressed, with 4 being weaker

Last edited by dogperson; 09/20/21 01:11 PM.
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,431
2000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,431
Originally Posted by dogperson
Yes, the 8th notes remain constant. It is the beat that is stressed that changes: in 3/4, it is the first beat. In 6/8 , Beats 1 and 4 are stressed, with 4 being weaker
But 6/8 has two beats! It is "compound duple" time, each beat consisting of a dotted quarter.* Musically it make more sense to me to think of beats than 8th notes and that should define the constancy of the musical pulse. I guess, that's not always the case.

* I know sometimes it is divided into 3 beats but then it's just a notational alternative to 3/4.

Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 647
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 647
Oh this question always makes me wonder....

You do follow the 8th note unless it says L'ISTESSO TEMPO, in which case the pulse remains constant and the sub-divide changes.

You sometimes also see instructions in brackets, like 'quaver = quaver', which can be helpful, but not always.

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 14,931
B
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 14,931
Originally Posted by Qazsedcft
However, just now I sight read some music that had a change of meter from 3/4 to 6/8 and that left me perplexed. Should I play it so that the 8th notes remain constant or should I play it so that each beat is constant (in which case 6/8 would feel faster). I decided for the later but I don't know that it's the correct way. I played a bunch of pieces with frequent meter changes but I never learned any rule that says how the tempo should be kept. I guess I always relied on my teacher or my ears.
Listen to this famous number which has alternating 6/8 & 3/4 (a sort of 'horizontal hemiola'), typical of certain Latin dances. (Lenny claims it's a Huapango):



"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 647
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 647
Originally Posted by Qazsedcft
I'm wondering if there is a general rule for how the tempo should be kept through meter changes. For instance, I played a piece that had 7/8 time (3+4) and then when the meter changed to 6/8 I played it so that the 8th notes remained at a constant tempo but played one less per measure. That is usually how I deal with changing meters. However, just now I sight read some music that had a change of meter from 3/4 to 6/8 and that left me perplexed. Should I play it so that the 8th notes remain constant or should I play it so that each beat is constant (in which case 6/8 would feel faster). I decided for the later but I don't know that it's the correct way. I played a bunch of pieces with frequent meter changes but I never learned any rule that says how the tempo should be kept. I guess I always relied on my teacher or my ears.

Btw, I think I'm correct in saying that 7/8 has 3 stresses in it, not 2. So rather than 3+4 it's actually 3+2+2 (or 2+2+3).

Similarly, 5/8 has 2 stresses in it: 3+2 or 2+3.

With 3/4 to 6/8, they both have 6 quavers to a bar. What changes is where the stress lies and how we sub-divide the beat. So, in 3/4 the beat is subdivided into 2 (quavers), whereas in 6/8 each beat is subdivided into 3 (3 quavers to the dotted crotchet).

As bennevis just pointed out, America (from West Side Story), alternates between 6/8 and 3/4. The both have 6 quavers in a bar but what changes is where the stress lands in the bar.

Talking of odd metres, who can work out the time signature of this intro (no cheating!):


bennevis #3158178 09/20/21 06:26 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 25,450
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 25,450
Originally Posted by bennevis
[...]Listen to this famous number which has alternating 6/8 & 3/4 (a sort of 'horizontal hemiola'), typical of certain Latin dances. (Lenny claims it's a Huapango):


Here is a piano piece written by Jose Iturbi which uses the same alternating 6/8; 3/4 time signature. I have occasionally thought of using it as an encore.



Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
BruceD #3158188 09/20/21 07:19 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 14,931
B
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 14,931
Originally Posted by BruceD
Here is a piano piece written by Jose Iturbi which uses the same alternating 6/8; 3/4 time signature. I have occasionally thought of using it as an encore.

Is the score available or published? I'd like to have a 'look' at it.
There's nothing on IMSLP.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
bennevis #3158224 09/21/21 01:32 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 25,450
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 25,450
Originally Posted by BruceD
Here is a piano piece written by Jose Iturbi which uses the same alternating 6/8; 3/4 time signature. I have occasionally thought of using it as an encore.


Originally Posted by bennevis
Is the score available or published? I'd like to have a 'look' at it.

The score was published by G. Schirmer, Inc. New York, copyright 1934. Full title: "Pequeña Danza Española" (Dance of Spain) for piano by José Iturbi. (Price, 50 cents in U. S. A. )

Regards,

Last edited by BruceD; 09/21/21 01:33 AM.

BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 584
C
500 Post Club Member
Online Content
500 Post Club Member
C
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 584
It's interesting, perhaps the answer depends on whether you take compound metre to stand on its own or as a triplet version of simple metre. In the latter one could have a passage in which simple 3/4 becomes tripled to 9/8 without changing time signature, before actually changes to a notated 6/8. Then the answer depends on your understanding of compound metre.

bennevis #3158232 09/21/21 02:34 AM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 2,092
M
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 2,092
Originally Posted by bennevis
Listen to this famous number which has alternating 6/8 & 3/4 (a sort of 'horizontal hemiola'), typical of certain Latin dances. (Lenny claims it's a Huapango):

Hemiola - is an important thing to clarify.



My teacher says it a Brahms used a lot and this was where I learnt the term. I can't remember any examples now!

Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 2,337
S
2000 Post Club Member
Online Content
2000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 2,337
I dont think there is any hard rule. It really depends on how the music is written and the composer indications if any (could be metronome indications or tempo descriptions). It also depends if the rythmic structure of the bar remains the same or not.

Usually when for example mixing 3/4 and 6/8 in the same piece, often composers do indicate both meters and even can specifify to keep the 8th constant. In that case, the basic beat remains the same, but in 3/4 the tempo is faster than in 6/8. In that case the piece has a constant pulse but alternating tempos.

Another case is when there is one section in lets say 3/4 and then the next one in another meter with a different rythmic structure. Then indeed the question is whether one should keep the tempo the same of keep the basic beat/pulse.

For example in the 9th symphony, the scherzo is in 3/4 and B indicates dotted half at 116 then in the presto in 4/4 he gives whole note =116. Thus he keeps the same basic beat (pulse) and duration of each bar, but the rythm and the tempo are faster (the quarter note being shorter in duration). If you would keep the quarter note equal, then the effect would be the opposite. You would have the same tempo but the beat/pulse would be slower.

Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 647
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 647
The final thing I'll say about America is that it has two time sigs at the start of the section. It's actually written as "6/8 (3/4)" to show that you'll be alternating between stresses, which infers no change in tempo.

fatar760 #3158291 09/21/21 09:09 AM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,431
2000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,431
This is all very interesting. Thank you.

Originally Posted by fatar760
Talking of odd metres, who can work out the time signature of this intro (no cheating!):

OK, no cheating I swear. At the beginning I hear 3+3+3+4, so I suppose it's 13/8...

<searches online>

Yes, I got it right! smile

Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 647
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 647
Originally Posted by Qazsedcft
This is all very interesting. Thank you.

Originally Posted by fatar760
Talking of odd metres, who can work out the time signature of this intro (no cheating!):

OK, no cheating I swear. At the beginning I hear 3+3+3+4, so I suppose it's 13/8...

<searches online>

Yes, I got it right! smile

Yes! Well done smile

BruceD #3158439 09/21/21 04:14 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 14,931
B
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 14,931
Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by bennevis
Is the score available or published? I'd like to have a 'look' at it.

The score was published by G. Schirmer, Inc. New York, copyright 1934. Full title: "Pequeña Danza Española" (Dance of Spain) for piano by José Iturbi. (Price, 50 cents in U. S. A. )
Thanks.
Looks like it's long been out of print. I found a used reprint for the equivalent of USD 17 here (including p&p), but for a 6-page short piece, that's exorbitant, so I think I'll wait until something cheaper turns up, as it always does........ whistle


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

Link Copied to Clipboard
What's Hot!!
Pianos - Organs - & Keyboards, Oh My!
Our Fall 2021 Free Newsletter is Out , see it here!
---------------------
Selling my Hammond & Leslie!
---------------------
My first professionally recorded piece
---------------------
Visit Maine, Meet Mr. Piano World
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Piano bench with lumbar support
by Andante Sostenuto - 10/19/21 07:15 AM
ES-520 vs ES-920 comparisons?
by rwc17 - 10/19/21 03:47 AM
New Yamaha CFX- Production voices
by newer player - 10/18/21 07:21 PM
What books do you use to teach music theory to beginners?
by chicagopiano1 - 10/18/21 06:13 PM
Kawai NV5 Hissing Sound
by Kend - 10/18/21 05:58 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics209,647
Posts3,140,598
Members103,047
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5