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Good debates here, probably enough to help guide the OP towards wherever their stated doubts are leading them .... meantime, keep up the lively discussion .... quibbles .....and or statements of opinion, all of you ! πŸ™‚ after all, opinions are like the odorous orifice on the bottom side .... every body has one even though not everybody may have been taught to like admitting it ..... i suspect many of us here still live in a partly fee world where one can be assertive, yee gads, despite the risk of it flying in the face of the younger generations of increasingly wussified world hesitant to voice dissent ..... opine , agree, disagree , assert and continue on within bounds as necessary, folks...


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Originally Posted by playplayplay
The "I doubt it" was a bit too much? Are you that assertive in other stuffs?

I think it should be obvious, that I don't hold long esoteric ramblings about some "inner musician" mixed with nonsense and name-dropping of famous pianists in high regard. That lead to my (rhetorical) question.

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The p-515, is like all the other digitals a keyboard with folded action, and as thus is not appropriate for classical pieces.(as he said)

Indeed, practicing classical pieces on a digital piano is something I don't consider time spent well. Unlike the favorite opinion that all practice is good practice (usually stems from people going on their own with no outside feedback), I know that wrong practice can actually make things worse. Once you learned a piece the wrong way, you lost your chance to learn it right from scratch. Instead you going to spend much more time on trying to correct earlier mistakes.

That's why it is important to refrain from repertoire which is beyond your skill level on equipment which isn't up to the task.


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One needs to find the piano which will do those demi-semis without issue. For the first time in my life, I've found mine.
I took a chance on a ES110 . . .Light and easy, your fingers'll GO!


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JoeT: I applaud you for you knack on causing commotion and confusion... It's a gift that not all humans have, and that you have mastered. "All practice is better than no practice" (which I said) is different from "all practice is good practice" which I don't remember being said in this thread, and certainly not by me...

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Originally Posted by peterws
One needs to find the piano which will do those demi-semis without issue. For the first time in my life, I've found mine.
I took a chance on a ES110 . . .Light and easy, your fingers'll GO!

The ES110 will delay notes once you reach the polyphony limit using the correct pedaling. There is also a high chance of injury if you're doing that material a tempo, as with no real escapement the strain on your tendons and muscles will be much higher than on a real piano - I strongly advise against practicing virtuoso stuff on digital pianos.


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Originally Posted by JoeT
Indeed, practicing classical pieces on a digital piano is something I don't consider time spent well. Unlike the favorite opinion that all practice is good practice (usually stems from people going on their own with no outside feedback), I know that wrong practice can actually make things worse. Once you learned a piece the wrong way, you lost your chance to learn it right from scratch. Instead you going to spend much more time on trying to correct earlier mistakes.

That's why it is important to refrain from repertoire which is beyond your skill level on equipment which isn't up to the task.

I agree with this. And this is also valid with almost all aspects of life.
But I think, it is important not to make generalities, and take into account the person, its goal, be realistic and so on.
To learn piano is difficult and time consuming. And in order to learn it properly you have to find yourself in the right conditions.
And that has not only to do with the artefact. You have to take into consideration the age, the way the person will learn (teacher or not), its goals, its available time, its natural dextirity etc....
As for me,for example:
I am not in the same place as a 10 years old, who would like to become a renowned pianist. I do not have the same amount of time at my disposal, I am more aware of my limitations, which will restraint my capability to set myself challenge etc...
I know that I won't play in a huge concert hall, on the Boersendoerffer or in a band. I will play for myself, family or friends. Learning piano helps me to understand what the piano is about, and what is behind the scene. To understand better when I hear a pianist in a concert hall.
I know also that, as you said (and I agree with you), it is better to learn the right way. I can't have an acoustic, but I can have a teacher. So, as a trade-off, I have a piano teacher to teach me on a digital "keyboard with folded action". Will I play, in a future, on an acoustic, I will from time to time. Will I play regularly on an acoustic (that means having one in my house), I am not that sure, but who knows.
In that sense the possible bad behaviors I would get won't have a negative impact on me.
Having said that, (and there is more to say) is it better to learn piano on a kawai es920 with a teacher or to learn piano on an upright with an app?
I do think that it could be dangerous to give advices to someone, without knowing where is its position and where he wants to go.
BTW, piano world is also time consuming.....


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The OP made an identical inquiry in the Piano Forum, to which Charles Cohen replied thus:

"Your P-45 is at the lower end of what's called "digital piano" -- 88 weighted keys.

The CA99 (or CA79) will be _much_ better, for your level of playing. Longer keysticks, so it's easier to play near the fallboard, better dynamic control, much longer sustain, "string resonance", continuous half-pedalling, . . .

. . . It's not an acoustic piano, but it tries _really hard_ to match that sound.

There's a "mid-range" contingent -- Yamaha P-515 / Kawai ES-920 / Roland FP-90 -- which would be worth trying out. (Those instrument also have "cabinet" versions, I don't know the numbers.)

Find a music shop that has some high-end digitals, and try them out."


Very good advice from Charles, as usual. The mid-range pianos he mentions offer the best "bang-for-the-buck", though the highest level Yamaha CLPs and Kawai CAs are certainly better. I would recommend the CA79 if you plan to play using headphones only, since the CA99's added value comes from its soundboard, which is active only without headphones.

OP, you indicated in the Piano Forum that an acoustic was out of question, else I would recommend one. I returned to the piano after 40 years away with a Yamaha DGX-660, an instrument that has a similar key action to the P-45. While this action is certainly okay for beginner to early intermediate pieces (say up to British Grade 4 or 5), you are right to consider a higher-level piano for anything more advanced. I upgraded to a Kawai acoustic grand after a few years, though I still have (and love) my Yamaha digital.

But, honestly, if you are playing advanced pieces like the ones mentioned, you should be able to decide between digital pianos without the debatable advice of internet forum posters like me. Best wishes for making the right decision for yourself!

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Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by peterws
One needs to find the piano which will do those demi-semis without issue. For the first time in my life, I've found mine.
I took a chance on a ES110 . . .Light and easy, your fingers'll GO!

The ES110 will delay notes once you reach the polyphony limit using the correct pedaling. There is also a high chance of injury if you're doing that material a tempo, as with no real escapement the strain on your tendons and muscles will be much higher than on a real piano - I strongly advise against practicing virtuoso stuff on digital pianos.

I have compared, and was considering buying an acoustic. Might still do so, but my experience on the ES is surpisingly good. The idea is to let your fingers dance over the keys instead of pressing into them. The momentum of the keys will do the rest. Maybe . . .

Last edited by peterws; 09/14/21 02:30 PM.

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Kawai ES110 yes
Yamaha P-125 no
Roland FP-30X no


Harry Likas was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's The Jazz Theory Book and helped develop The Jazz Piano Book. Studied with Mark Levine 1985-89 and Barry Harris 1995-99
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If you're answering the question "Is practicing on a lower-end Digital piano good?" ...
Originally Posted by RinTin
Kawai ES110 yes
Yamaha P-125 no
Roland FP-30X no
... then please explain your yes and no answers.

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Originally Posted by vagfilm
JoeT: I applaud you for you knack on causing commotion and confusion... It's a gift that not all humans have, and that you have mastered....

This.

Commotion, yes. Confusion, yes. And as you also reference in your post the habit of deliberately misquoting and/or misrepresenting the words of others. Whist couching everything in an utterly charmless tone that verges on aggression.

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Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by vagfilm
JoeT: I applaud you for you knack on causing commotion and confusion... It's a gift that not all humans have, and that you have mastered....

This.

Commotion, yes. Confusion, yes. And as you also reference in your post the habit of deliberately misquoting and/or misrepresenting the words of others. Whist couching everything in an utterly charmless tone that verges on aggression.

Ah, Essbrace! you just have to learn how to handle Joe. He might not be slow walkin' or slow talkin' but he'd still respond well to an electronic cow-prodder . . .


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Originally Posted by peterws
Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by vagfilm
JoeT: I applaud you for you knack on causing commotion and confusion... It's a gift that not all humans have, and that you have mastered....

This.

Commotion, yes. Confusion, yes. And as you also reference in your post the habit of deliberately misquoting and/or misrepresenting the words of others. Whist couching everything in an utterly charmless tone that verges on aggression.

Ah, Essbrace! you just have to learn how to handle Joe. He might not be slow walkin' or slow talkin' but he'd still respond well to an electronic cow-prodder . . .

I like this idea Pete. You plug it in to a high voltage supply and I'll do the prodding.

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Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by AmPianistComposer
I currently own a Yamaha P-45 (four years old) and I'm currently working on Rachmaninoff's moment musicaux, Chopin's polonaise, and some Liszt etudes...

Do you think this piano meets the requirements?

It's not a real piano. It's a digital keyboard with a folded action.

Quote
Should I upgrade to a new one? Any tips?

I've lately been considering the Yamaha Clavinova and Kawai Concert Artist series.
Maybe-
=> Yamaha clp 785 or 795gp
OR
=> Kawai ca99

It would be helpful if you could also provide insights on which of the two mentioned are better too! smile

Same basic technology, more bells and whistles.

The money you would spend on them gets you a real upright piano.

An upright would be worse than say a CA99 for various applications. Namely due to the lack of double escapement and increased resistance playing near the fallboard, both of which the CA99 won't suffer from as it mimics a grand action.

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The CA99 does not have the double escapement of a grand piano. Nor even the single escapement of an upright piano.
Originally Posted by Tupac
An upright would be worse than say a CA99 for various applications. Namely due to the lack of double escapement and increased resistance playing near the fallboard, both of which the CA99 won't suffer from as it mimics a grand action.

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Quote
I currently own a Yamaha P-45 (four years old) and I'm currently working on Rachmaninoff's moment musicaux, Chopin's polonaise, and some Liszt etudes...

Do you think this piano meets the requirements?
Lately, I have been feeling that this piano is not performing up to the mark (not receiving the right sound and touch response that I expect).

Which Chopin Polonaise? They have a significant range of difficulty.

With all due respect, having to ask if the piano is up to the task would be an indication that you are not ready for these works.

What are some examples of pieces you play well currently?

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Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Quote
I currently own a Yamaha P-45 (four years old) and I'm currently working on Rachmaninoff's moment musicaux, Chopin's polonaise, and some Liszt etudes...

Do you think this piano meets the requirements?
Lately, I have been feeling that this piano is not performing up to the mark (not receiving the right sound and touch response that I expect).

Which Chopin Polonaise? They have a significant range of difficulty.

Three weeks ago on PW:

Originally Posted by AmPianistComposer
What is the most difficult piece among these?
Please do consider ranking them [musically/technically/both].
1) "Liszt- Un Sospiro"
2) "Rachmaninoff- Moment Musicaux Op 16 No.4"
3) "Chopin- Heroic Polonaise Op 53"


I love all of these pieces and all of them are completely different from each other.
I also plan to learn them. Which of them should I be approaching first and which last?

Any piece of advice would be greatly appreciated
Thank you!
Originally Posted by AmPianistComposer
Thanks a lot for your advice
I have already started working on Rachmaninoff smile


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Originally Posted by Tupac
An upright would be worse than say a CA99 for various applications. Namely due to the lack of double escapement and increased resistance playing near the fallboard, both of which the CA99 won't suffer from as it mimics a grand action.

[Linked Image]

The plastic mechanism (there is no piano action) is folded above the key. The description is mostly concerned with the keyboard, but that is NOT part of a piano action. The weighted metal thingy which cannot escape is all that there is in a CA99. ​It has nothing in common with a grand piano action. The keysticks aren't balanced, which is typical for folded actions. Of course it looks much more sophisticated than what is in the P-45, but the basic principle is the same.

This is a single escapement upright piano action. The action is in the left above the balanced keystick (that's why the so-called balance pins are in the center):

[Linked Image]


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A Renner action that uses springs! Do they all do that?


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Acoustic piano actions all have springs. One under the jack. And on grands, one or two more on the rep.
Originally Posted by peterws
A Renner action that uses springs! Do they all do that?
Many digital actions also have springs. (But no strings!)

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