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@anotherscott Actually I saw negative reviews on both the keybed of Grand and Studio. Also on another site, someone even mentioned about having display problems on the controller. That really makes me question about the longevity of SL. After all I don't want to buy a controller that would become unusable after some time. But then again looking at the video I linked above, I feel like the SL Grand holds the answer to all my problems 😋

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@Charles Cohen ok this is where I get confused, over here you mentioned that the PX series generates velocity from 15-115 yet a high end model like the Kawai VPC1 would generate (1-127). So as many mentioned here that having dual/triple sensor have nothing to do with generating full velocity range. My question is , then what is it for which a Kawai is able to and not the Casio ?

If anyone else could also shed some light on this, please do. Its not only for the fact that I am looking to buy a digital piano but in general I am just bloody curious to know about this

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Our own David Lai is classical piano student who switched from sl-88 grand to vpc-1. Here are his impressions:
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...1-should-have-bought-this-last-year.html

Last edited by VladK; 09/12/21 05:42 PM.

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Originally Posted by Sakef Chowdhury
@Charles Cohen ok this is where I get confused, over here you mentioned that the PX series generates velocity from 15-115 yet a high end model like the Kawai VPC1 would generate (1-127). So as many mentioned here that having dual/triple sensor have nothing to do with generating full velocity range. My question is , then what is it for which a Kawai is able to and not the Casio ?
Assuming those figures are correct, the Kawai just does a better job at generating the full range of velocities. There's no "spec" or "feature" you can check for this. It's engineering and programming.

That said, the PX in question actually has high resolution MIDI velocity, which supports, not 127, but over 16,000 levels of velocity (which is why it it appeals to lots of Pianoteq users, since that's one of the few VSTs that can respond to high resolution MIDI). So I'm actually surprised that, when used in a standard 127-value environment, Charles is only finding it able to hit 115.

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Hi Sakef: the important thing that you must not forget is that from 15 to 115 there are still 100 levels of touch control. Can you press a key at 100 different levels? Even if you can, will that be different from 127 levels? From ppp to fff there are only a few levels... If you use a velocity mapper and stretch 15-115 to 1-127, you get the same end result. If that did not work for you, the problem lies either in the VST or speakers, but will nor be solved by a different controller.

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@vagfilm: We've had that discussion before.
There are those who hold to the more-is-better philosophy.
And there are those (you and I) who can't imagine using and discerning even 100 levels, never mind 16,000.

Perhaps this thread can be diverted into subjects like pivot lengths and simulated escapements. frown

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OMG: how could I forget pivot length? Can you use longer pivots to increase midi?

Seriously Sakef: there are keyboards with linear sensitivity, others that differentiate well slow velocities while don't differentiate between faster key speeds, or that have sections of the keyboard with different calibrations... I'm a firm believer that if you can get the keyboard to reliably differentiate 10 levels of pressure, you can adjust a good velocity curve for a VST. The velocity curve is the crucial element.

Last edited by vagfilm; 09/12/21 08:01 PM.
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@vagfilm Well logically speaking I also don't think it's humanly possible to press a key at 100 different levels. But I think a piano play would sound good when the dynamic ranges can transition smoothly from loud to soft and vice versa. But I found this impossible to achieve with the P45. It was something like this, if I would have played a passage of say 8notes that starts off with a loud dynamic range. In this case let's say the loud dynamic range is peaking around (115), I would expect the rest 7 notes to be around atleast (100-108) . But if it falls around (80-90), this major dynamic range difference makes the whole play sound shitty. Now some might say it might be that I lack skills and it's not a problem with the controller but thing is I only faced this problem with vsts and not with the onboard sound of the piano.

Hence my conclusion that I need a digital piano that covers the whole velocity range, should have triple sensor,etc so that I don't face such problems.

PS - My judgement might be wrong though :p

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Anyways it's not like I have a variety of options to choose from as I am on a very tight budget. So far I am juggling between these models: Roland FP 30X,Casio PX160 and the Sl88 Grand. @HZPiano gave some very good insights on the Roland here. And also it's gonna be much more easier for me to buy the Roland/Casio as these are cheaper then the SL88. But then again I am still a bit confused maybe it's because I don't have the option to try these before buying.

I know this might be dumb of me to ask but does any one of you have the option to play the Garritan CFX with a Roland FP30x/the Casio and give me some feedback on it or maybe post a YouTube link here where the CFX is being played by these ? Cuz I don't want to buy these models and face the same problem I did with the P45

Last edited by Sakef Chowdhury; 09/13/21 04:45 AM.
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Originally Posted by Sakef Chowdhury
... I only faced this problem with vsts and not with the onboard sound of the piano.

Hence my conclusion that I need a digital piano that covers the whole velocity range, should have triple sensor,etc so that I don't face such problems.

A dual sensor should be perfectly okay for the whole velocity range. The purpose of the third sensor is to allow the hammer to strike again even if the key hasn't fully returned to the top position (alike acoustic grand action with double escapement).

If you can't get the full dynamic range with VSTs, it may be that the keyboard isn't sending the full range of MIDI values to the computer. To check this In Pianoteq demo you can see strike intensities. Or maybe you can use a midi debugging program (https://www.noterepeat.com/articles...ing-a-midi-monitor-to-test-a-midi-device). If you find that your keyboard isn't sending the whole range, you may be able to modify the input curve appropriately.

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My piano's velocity goes no higher than 108. But it's not a problem. I just tweak the velocity curve.

Also, the third sensor contributes nothing to the velocity range. It's there to handle faster repetition.
Originally Posted by Sakef Chowdhury
Hence my conclusion that I need a digital piano that covers the whole velocity range, should have triple sensor,etc so that I don't face such problems.

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Originally Posted by Sakef Chowdhury
. I know this might be dumb of me to ask but does any one of you have the option to play the Garritan CFX with a Roland FP30x/the Casio and give me some feedback on it or maybe post a YouTube link here where the CFX is being played by these ? Cuz I don't want to buy these models and face the same problem I did with the P45

About this ☝️, can anyone help me out ?

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Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
You might find one of the PX-nnn DP's (PX-150, PX-160, PX-350 PX-360, and several others) used, even in Bangladesh. Check the specs if you find one, for that specific action.

"Half-pedalling" is supported by some of those models, with a fixed "half-pedal" MIDI value. I don't know if "continuous half-pedalling" is supported (with MIDI output).
I believe you need Casio's triple pedal attachment to do half-pedaling on these models, but that yes, it would also work over MIDI. Alternatively, there are adapters that let you use a half-damper pedal on a VST, even if the keyboard you're using doesn't itself support it (or in this case, doesn't have the triple pedal attachment).

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Originally Posted by Sakef Chowdhury
@Charles Cohen ok this is where I get confused, over here you mentioned that the PX series generates velocity from 15-115 yet a high end model like the Kawai VPC1 would generate (1-127). So as many mentioned here that having dual/triple sensor have nothing to do with generating full velocity range. My question is , then what is it for which a Kawai is able to and not the Casio ?

You are making an assumption, that the VPC1 _does_ generate velocities of 1-127.

. . . Who tested a VPC1, and looked at the MIDI output,
. . . and found that it _does_ cover the full 1-127 range ?

Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't.

The Casio generates about 100 different values of velocity. That's much finer resolution than my playing. With a velocity map in my VST, I can map the lowest generated MIDI value to a very soft sound, and the largest value to a very loud sound. It happens that a straight-line map between those extreme values, works well for Pianoteq and the PX-350, and my playing.

As for "what's the difference?":

The VPC1 action feels closer to an acoustic action, than the Casio action. Just about everyone who has played both of them, agrees on that. That's one thing that all the extra money buys. The VPC1 is (I think) more rugged, and might last longer with heavy use.

On a "two-sensor" keyboard, all that the MIDI velocity does, is tell you how fast the key moved, between the top and bottom sensors.

. . . When the key moves upward, past the top sensor,
. . . the keyboard generates a "Note-off" event.

On a "three-sensor" keyboard, the MIDI velocity tells you how fast it moved between the middle sensor, and the bottom sensor.

. . . The top sensor is used to detect "key all the way up", and generate MIDI "note-off" events.

You can go crazy with all this detail.

Last edited by Charles Cohen; 09/13/21 08:30 PM.

. Charles
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