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The brochure for the NV5 says it has a Millennium III hybrid action, while the Kawai acoustics have a Millennium III action. I thought the term of hybrid meant it was a real and complete action put into a DP including a felted hammer head. Are there other differences in addition to this? Would this be considered a partial-hybrid piano? Even though there is no need for a felted hammer it's not a 100% Millennium III action, but a modified version.


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Originally Posted by Tenor1
The brochure for the NV5 says it has a Millennium III hybrid action, while the Kawai acoustics have a Millennium III action. I thought the term of hybrid meant it was a real and complete action put into a DP including a felted hammer head. Are there other differences in addition to this? Would this be considered a partial-hybrid piano? Even though there is no need for a felted hammer it's not a 100% Millennium III action, but a modified version.

Manufacturers have different definitions for "hybrid," there is no standard. Yamaha and Kawai *tend* to reserve it for pianos that have full acoustic piano actions.

Neither Kawai nor Yamaha use felted hammer heads on their hybrid digitals (what would be the point)?

Also, I believe technically, the hammer head and felt isn't part of the "action" anyways.

Is it 100% a Millennium III action (other than the hammer heads and felts)? I'm not aware of any other differences, but maybe there are some? Does it matter, so long as it functions and behaves like a real acoustic piano action?


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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by Tenor1
The brochure for the NV5 says it has a Millennium III hybrid action, while the Kawai acoustics have a Millennium III action. I thought the term of hybrid meant it was a real and complete action put into a DP including a felted hammer head. Are there other differences in addition to this? Would this be considered a partial-hybrid piano? Even though there is no need for a felted hammer it's not a 100% Millennium III action, but a modified version.

Manufacturers have different definitions for "hybrid," there is no standard. Yamaha and Kawai *tend* to reserve it for pianos that have full acoustic piano actions.

Neither Kawai nor Yamaha use felted hammer heads on their hybrid digitals (what would be the point)?

Also, I believe technically, the hammer head and felt isn't part of the "action" anyways.

Is it 100% a Millennium III action (other than the hammer heads and felts)? I'm not aware of any other differences, but maybe there are some? Does it matter, so long as it functions and behaves like a real acoustic piano action?

Thanks! I'm asking because I took so much flack two years ago when I bought the Casio GP-500. Now I buy the NV5 and find it isn't a real hybrid either. So I went from a Grand Hybrid to a Quasi Hybrid, lol.

The Grand Hybrid action is extraordinarily.


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Originally Posted by Tenor1
Now I buy the NV5 and find it isn't a real hybrid either. So I went from a Grand Hybrid to a Quasi Hybrid, lol.

No, you went from an action that was designed for a digital piano, to an action that was designed for an acoustic upright piano and adapted for the NV5.

Please don't conflate the two.

Kind regards,
James
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by Tenor1
Now I buy the NV5 and find it isn't a real hybrid either. So I went from a Grand Hybrid to a Quasi Hybrid, lol.

No, you went from an action that was designed for a digital piano, to an action that was designed for an acoustic upright piano and adapted for the NV5.

Please don't conflate the two.

Kind regards,
James
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Thank you so much for clearly distinguishing the two so succinctly, much appreciated.


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Originally Posted by Tenor1
Thanks! I'm asking because I took so much flack two years ago when I bought the Casio GP-500. Now I buy the NV5 and find it isn't a real hybrid either. So I went from a Grand Hybrid to a Quasi Hybrid, lol.

The Grand Hybrid action is extraordinarily.


How do you define a Hybird piano when you say that the NV5S is a quasi-hybrid.

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if it doesn’t have a hammer (because no strings, ok) - does it have something that replicates the weight and balance of a hammer? Otherwise the feel of the key would be different wouldn’t it, because you’re not moving the same thing at the end of it

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Of course both Yamaha and Kawai use hammer substitutes that are also weighted/graded similarly as the actual hammers in the acoustic versions.

[Linked Image]

(From: https://www.kawai-global.com/product/nv5s/)

There are some black composite action parts, but they are also in the acoustic version. The fake hammer shanks are still wood for "ultimate realism". 😉

And there are often some "inaccuracies" when discussing this topic such as:

- "Kawai calls the CA models hybrids": That is/was only on a Kawai North America website for the models with a soundboard, so that doesn't come from the headquarters. Kawai Global doesn't call the CA99 a "hybrid".

- Some individual person is "taking flack": In reality people are just discussing the technical aspects and naming conventions of specific more or less "hybrid" models and there's nothing personal.

Last edited by clothearednincompo; 09/06/21 04:51 AM.
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Originally Posted by mrklaw
if it doesn’t have a hammer (because no strings, ok) - does it have something that replicates the weight and balance of a hammer? Otherwise the feel of the key would be different wouldn’t it, because you’re not moving the same thing at the end of it

Sorry I wasn't trying to define, but rather clarify and Kawai James did that for me.


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Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
Of course both Yamaha and Kawai use hammer substitutes that are also weighted/graded similarly as the actual hammers in the acoustic versions.

[Linked Image]

(From: https://www.kawai-global.com/product/nv5s/)

There are some black composite action parts, but they are also in the acoustic version. The fake hammer shanks are still wood for "ultimate realism". 😉

And there are often some "inaccuracies" when discussing this topic such as:

- "Kawai calls the CA models hybrids": That is/was only on a Kawai North America website for the models with a soundboard, so that doesn't come from the headquarters. Kawai Global doesn't call the CA99 a "hybrid".

- Some individual person is "taking flack": In reality people are just discussing the technical aspects and naming conventions of specific more or less "hybrid" models and there's nothing personal.

I was the one taking flack two years ago. Some people were quite nasty and I stopped participating here.


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The term hybrid is ambiguous. And confusing. And pointless.

Who's to say what makes a hybrid a hybrid?

Witness ...

Your hybrid car has batteries but no hammers.
You hybrid piano has hammers but no batteries.

Is Toyota lying? Or is Kawai?

I want justice!!!

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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
The term hybrid is ambiguous. And confusing. And pointless.

Who's to say what makes a hybrid a hybrid?

Witness ...

Your hybrid car has batteries but no hammers.
You hybrid piano has hammers but no batteries.

Is Toyota lying? Or is Kawai?

I want justice!!!

Thanks this is the best perspective I've read! Let's call the whole thing off, as the song goes.


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The truth is that these ‘deceptively ambiguous’ tactics work (for the manufacturers).

We think we can read in between the lines and that we’re so smart that ‘we never fall for the hyperbole’, but the truth is that we do fall for it; we’re just not immediately aware of it. It is subliminal manipulation at the highest level.

You don’t believe me? Well, ask yourself how often you come here to discuss these ‘bogus’ claims and furthermore how often you feel a need to upgrade your perfectly playing piano because Gombessa has convinced you that only a ‘real’ action can suffice. But what is a real action, I ask? Are we to say that the action in my P-515 is not ‘real’, and by what metric do we arrive at that conclusion?

Take pivots, for instance; yes, we joke about pivot lengths and how absurd the whole thing is, but still we want the longest pivot, and guess what, the manufacturers are more than happy to fulfill that ‘need’ because they subliminally planted that desire in the first place. Kawai went longer with the GF, and Yamaha quickly followed with -what they call- the longest pivot in town, yet ironically enough, many still prefer the older/shorter pivot actions (RM3/NWX), what gives?

I’ll tell you what gives: they are playing us and we’re not even aware of it. And instead of making genuine and substantial improvements, they simply give us a little more of the same (this also applies to fully sampled engines).


Kind regards,

Pete14.1

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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
The term hybrid is ambiguous. And confusing. And pointless.

Who's to say what makes a hybrid a hybrid?

Witness ...

Your hybrid car has batteries but no hammers.
You hybrid piano has hammers but no batteries.

Is Toyota lying? Or is Kawai?

I want justice!!!

I think it depends on the context. If a car can run on both full electric and gasoline independently, it's a hybrid. But if one can't run without the other, it's kind of a hybrid, but strictly speaking, nothing can run independently.

I would call the Kawai AURES as a hybrid, because it can be either digital or acoustic. Everything else is a "fusion". Sounds not so fancy like "hybrid" but is more accurate.


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Originally Posted by Pete14
The truth is that these ‘deceptively ambiguous’ tactics work (for the manufacturers).

We think we can read in between the lines and that we’re so smart that ‘we never fall for the hyperbole’, but the truth is that we do fall for it; we’re just not immediately aware of it. It is subliminal manipulation at the highest level.

You don’t believe me? Well, ask yourself how often you come here to discuss these ‘bogus’ claims and furthermore how often you feel a need to upgrade your perfectly playing piano because Gombessa has convinced you that only a ‘real’ action can suffice. But what is a real action, I ask? Are we to say that the action in my P-515 is not ‘real’, and by what metric do we arrive at that conclusion?

Take pivots, for instance; yes, we joke about pivot lengths and how absurd the whole thing is, but still we want the longest pivot, and guess what, the manufacturers are more than happy to fulfill that ‘need’ because they subliminally planted that desire in the first place. Kawai went longer with the GF, and Yamaha quickly followed with -what they call- the longest pivot in town, yet ironically enough, many still prefer the older/shorter pivot actions (RM3/NWX), what gives?

I’ll tell you what gives: they are playing us and we’re not even aware of it. And instead of making genuine and substantial improvements, they simply give us a little more of the same (this also applies to fully sampled engines).


Kind regards,

Pete14.1

It's hard to get the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I need to just take a step back and see what makes plain sense, thanks.


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Originally Posted by Tenor1
Originally Posted by Pete14
The truth is that these ‘deceptively ambiguous’ tactics work (for the manufacturers).

We think we can read in between the lines and that we’re so smart that ‘we never fall for the hyperbole’, but the truth is that we do fall for it; we’re just not immediately aware of it. It is subliminal manipulation at the highest level.

You don’t believe me? Well, ask yourself how often you come here to discuss these ‘bogus’ claims and furthermore how often you feel a need to upgrade your perfectly playing piano because Gombessa has convinced you that only a ‘real’ action can suffice. But what is a real action, I ask? Are we to say that the action in my P-515 is not ‘real’, and by what metric do we arrive at that conclusion?

Take pivots, for instance; yes, we joke about pivot lengths and how absurd the whole thing is, but still we want the longest pivot, and guess what, the manufacturers are more than happy to fulfill that ‘need’ because they subliminally planted that desire in the first place. Kawai went longer with the GF, and Yamaha quickly followed with -what they call- the longest pivot in town, yet ironically enough, many still prefer the older/shorter pivot actions (RM3/NWX), what gives?

I’ll tell you what gives: they are playing us and we’re not even aware of it. And instead of making genuine and substantial improvements, they simply give us a little more of the same (this also applies to fully sampled engines).


Kind regards,

Pete14.1

It's hard to get the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I need to just take a step back and see what makes plain sense, thanks.

The only way to distinguish fact from the rest is to make empirical measurements and directly compare. Of course, another issue is whether there is anything better available in competitor models, as if not, the options are both not exactly the same as their equivalent acoustic piano. Thus, you decide based on the spec differences of competing models and the experience of playing said models and accept that the current options aren't perfect.

One thing's for sure: not a single digital action I've tested has been anywhere near the Avant Grand action. I've not yet played a Novus, but suspect that these two are in a class of their own, despite any hyperbole.


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Originally Posted by Tenor1
It's hard to get the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I need to just take a step back and see what makes plain sense, thanks.

Perhaps you are right. The ‘truth’ is that people lie all the time -even under oath- and deep down inside, we can’t handle the truth, “our digitals are average at best.”

So I will try to keep an open mind, and if they promise a concert-grand experience in a 1.5K digital package, who am I to say otherwise, because after all, what can 1.5K get you nowadays? Not much (maybe a sofa at best).

Perhaps some people ‘round the world -never having access to an acoustic and only being able to afford a ‘CasioTone’- will find that an ES920 is indeed the ultimate experience. So, for those -very poor- people Yamaha/Kawai speaks the truth, and this further confirms that it’s all ‘bout perspective: my lie is their truth and so forth……

In a nutshell, I need to obsess less about these things (easier said than done) and spend more time practicing.

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The NV5 and NV-10 (and Yamaha AvantGrands) have "true" acoustic piano actions. Not every single piece is exactly the same sku or part number as used in their respective acoustic pianos (the hammer weights in both, the additional back action weights on the Novuses, the jack and repetition lever parts on the AG) but the point is that they function mechanically the same way an acoustic does, so the feel is "authentic" and not "simulated" as on a typical DP action.

As you've probably heard here before, Casio took a regular simulated DP action, put hammer-felt-looking pieces on it, and tried very hard to claim it is a real acoustic piano action, which rankled many of us here who are familiar with how DP and acoustic actions differ. It was/is a fine action but NOT anywhere near an acoustic action mechanism. That is all.


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Gombessa, I noticed how you used ‘true’ instead of ‘real’ when referring to these mechanical actions used in acoustics, but both ‘true’ and ‘real’ are simply subjective terms.

The ‘digital piano action’ is simplified (mechanically) as compared to the ‘acoustic piano action’ simply because it does not need to be so complicated for its intended use (triggering sounds digitally rather than pounding them out of a string/soundboard).

So, the digital action is as ‘real’ and ‘true’ as the acoustic action, and its modified nature should not be used against it for the purposes of defining what is true and/or real, for as mentioned above, these terms are subjective to begin with!

Is the modern computer keyboard not ‘real’ simply because its mechanism is much simpler than that of a typewriter, I ask?

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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Casio took a regular simulated DP action, put hammer-felt-looking pieces on it, and tried very hard to claim it is a real acoustic piano action...

Actually, I don't think I've seen such claim from Casio.

I've seen it from random misinformed people. And Gear4Music.

Casio themselves have proudly published photos of it, so we know exactly what it looks like.

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