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The impedance of the spkr system needs to be matched to that of the amp. output.


Will do some R&B for a while. Give the classical a break.
You can spend the rest of your life looking for music on a sheet of paper. You'll never find it, because it just ain't there. - Me Myself
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My bad. I said:
"My DP came with two 10 centimetres speaker drives and the builtin amp can output 25w per channe.. I have connected them to my own amp "
but I meant:
"My DP came with two 10 centimetres speaker drives and the builtin amp can output 25w per channe.. I have connected the speakers to my own amp.. " So the DP's amp is irrelevant.

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THere's something here I still don't know:

. . . Are you driving the Samsung amp from the _output_ of the DP's amp,

. . . . or are you driving the Samsung amp from the _input_ of the DP's amp ?

And something else:

. . . Is the output of the DP's amp, still connected to the DP's speakers?

. . . . or is it just connected to the input of the Samsung amp?

Thanks --


. Charles
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Nope. Not ever.
Originally Posted by RaggedKeyPresser
The impedance of the spkr system needs to be matched to that of the amp. output.
The output impedance of a decent amplifier is very low, often well below 1 ohm. Speakers are typically 4-, 6- or 8-ohms.

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I use at home, my use is strictly residential, an eight-channel Yamaha mixer, already old, an MG82CX.

Following it a Preamplifier Parasound and amplifiers also Parasound.

As boxes Use 4 Monitors MTX 80i, each monitor has two drivers of 6.5" and tweeter, the result pleases me a lot.

•Specs:.
•Woofer 6½" Poly (2) .
•Tweeter 19mm.
•Grille Black Cloth .
•Frequency Response 42Hz-20KHz .
•Tuning Type Port .
•Rec Amp Power 15W to 100W RMS .
•Sensitivity (2.83v/1m) 92dB .

[img]https://na.suzohapp.com/php/thumb.php?src=/images/90/9675600.jpg&x=400&y=400[/img]

I use Parasound model 2125 HiFi amplifier, two chanel 125W, and 4 MTX monitor 60i.

I use in my Yamaha MOX8, driven by two Parasound New Classic 2125 stereo amplifiers, the sequence is MOX8 signal connected in mixer, mixer connected in preamplifier, preamplifier connected in amplifier.

I'm reporting this example of use because the piano bass gets very good, the definition of the mediums has a very good quality and is unbelievable as a tweeter of such low cost very satisfactory treble delivery.

Having a preamp after the mixer may seem like an exaggeration, but it's not.

I was able to use all the features of the mixer, including the effects and then pick up the worked signal and refine the preamplifier as an extra polish before taking the result to the amplifier and boxes.

The sound quality is excellent this way.

Hugs too all.

Rajane.

Last edited by RAJANE; 09/04/21 05:26 PM.

Yamaha MOX8
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Originally Posted by RAJANE
I use at home, my use is strictly residential, an eight-channel Yamaha mixer, already old, an MG82CX.

Following it a Preamplifier Parasound and amplifiers also Parasound.

As boxes Use 4 Monitors MTX 80i, each monitor has two drivers of 6.5" and tweeter, the result pleases me a lot.

•Specs:.
•Woofer 6½" Poly (2) .
•Tweeter 19mm.
•Grille Black Cloth .
•Frequency Response 42Hz-20KHz .
•Tuning Type Port .
•Rec Amp Power 15W to 100W RMS .
•Sensitivity (2.83v/1m) 92dB .

[img]https://na.suzohapp.com/php/thumb.php?src=/images/90/9675600.jpg&x=400&y=400[/img]

I use Parasound model 2125 HiFi amplifier, two chanel 125W, and 4 MTX monitor 60i.

I use in my Yamaha MOX8, driven by two Parasound New Classic 2125 stereo amplifiers, the sequence is MOX8 signal connected in mixer, mixer connected in preamplifier, preamplifier connected in amplifier.

I'm reporting this example of use because the piano bass gets very good, the definition of the mediums has a very good quality and is unbelievable as a tweeter of such low cost very satisfactory treble delivery.

Having a preamp after the mixer may seem like an exaggeration, but it's not.

I was able to use all the features of the mixer, including the effects and then pick up the worked signal and refine the preamplifier as an extra polish before taking the result to the amplifier and boxes.

The sound quality is excellent this way.

Hugs too all.

Rajane.

Your Parasound’s are great. Thanks for sharing.

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The DP's amp is out of the circuit altogether. The Samsung amp is driven by Pianoteq's output, that is my PC.

Pianoteq's volume is set to +2 db and the Samsung amp is set to 2/3 of max volume, which amounts to around 26W per channel. This is close to the output power of the DP's amp, namely 25W. So I don't think this would pose a problem for the speakers. Also the output sound is decent at this volume.

I'm just wondering if going beyond that number would certainly damage the speakers in the long run.
In other words, did Korg decide to use a 50W amp on the basis of benefit margin, or is it really based on technical limits of the speakers' drivers (10cm)? I suppose there's no way to know that for sure, other than asking Korg directly. Am I right?

Originally Posted by drewr
... what is this body vibration you speak of?
The vibrations of sound through the body and keys. Right? On higher volume, the vibrations would be more prominent. And I'd like to have that.

Last edited by meghdad; 09/05/21 01:28 AM.
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@meghdad: Don't put credence in the amplifier specs. 50 watts here is not the same as 50 watts there.
Lies? Distortion? Clever specsmanship? Who knows?

In other news ... I find it odd that your sound is "rather weak" despite having Pianoteq set to +2 dB.
I recall that I had to turn Pianoteq down to -15 dB to keep the volume under control. And that with my amplifier volume setting at -35 dB below maximum.

I don't know the solution to your problem ... but I wonder: What audio device in your computer is producing the sound that you feed to this amplifier?

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Originally Posted by RonaldD
Can someone please explain the relationship between speaker size and watts.
I was looking at manufacturers sites and some models have the same size speakers but only half the wattage.
As an example:
4.7 inch speakers for 16 watts
and the same size speakers for 40 watts.
Is the 40 watts louder and will blow the speakers faster.
Ronald
Watts are a measure of power.

There is the matter of efficiency-- how much power does a speaker need to produce the desired sound pressure (volume) level?

And there is power rating-- what is the maximum power you safely can use to drive speakers without risk of overpowering and damaging them.

You actually are more likely to damage speakers from an underpowered amp due to amplifier clipping than from an overpowered amp overspec'ing the speakers, but it is good to conform to the spec of the speakers.

The above applies to passive speakers. For powered speakers, the power rating you will see is more likely to just be the amplifier power ratings.

There is no direct relationship between size and power requirements. Horn speakers can be very large and very efficient. Klipschorns may only need about a 25W amp and are quite large:

https://www.klipsch.com/products/klipschorn-floorstanding-speaker

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With my db meter resting on my piano bench, playing an f note amounts to around 85 dB. With the dB meter at my ear level, it becomes around 80 dB. The speakers are located beneath the piano. It's a Korg C1.

Is 85 dB for an f note normal?

@Sweelinck So it seems I won't be able to arrive at a conclusion unless Korg gives me the exact spec sheet of the speaker system. Of course, I can keep the volume in this safe zone, which I currently use and it's good enough, but I would love to go beyond it.

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Originally Posted by meghdad
With my db meter resting on my piano bench, playing an f note amounts to around 85 dB. With the dB meter at my ear level, it becomes around 80 dB. The speakers are located beneath the piano. It's a Korg C1.

Is 85 dB for an f note normal?

@Sweelinck So it seems I won't be able to arrive at a conclusion unless Korg gives me the exact spec sheet of the speaker system. Of course, I can keep the volume in this safe zone, which I currently use and it's good enough, but I would love to go beyond it.

Got some really good tips on how to adjust your digital piano for good hearing health here:

http://forum.pianoworld.com//ubbthr...nd-digital-pianos-vst-s.html#Post3147030

Last edited by Chris Pringle; 09/05/21 08:36 AM.
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Originally Posted by meghdad
The DP's amp is out of the circuit altogether. The Samsung amp is driven by Pianoteq's output, that is my PC.

Pianoteq's volume is set to +2 db and the Samsung amp is set to 2/3 of max volume, which amounts to around 26W per channel. This is close to the output power of the DP's amp, namely 25W. So I don't think this would pose a problem for the speakers. Also the output sound is decent at this volume.

I'm just wondering if going beyond that number would certainly damage the speakers in the long run.
In other words, did Korg decide to use a 50W amp on the basis of benefit margin, or is it really based on technical limits of the speakers' drivers (10cm)? I suppose there's no way to know that for sure, other than asking Korg directly. Am I right?

Originally Posted by drewr
... what is this body vibration you speak of?
The vibrations of sound through the body and keys. Right? On higher volume, the vibrations would be more prominent. And I'd like to have that.

Meghdad,

I must apologize to you, when i first read your bump to this thread and replied in an effort to help in some small way, i was quietly thinking / concluding that you were somehow trying to use your DP’s speakers as though they were otherwise detached from your DP ..... so i assumed for multiple reasons i was badly mistaken because ..... why or who would do THAT ? 🤔 but i did not let my confusion get in the way of offering some help at that time ..... now that ive reread bump several times AND read your linked “rerouting speakers” thread, i realize you’re trying that very thing AND i gather this is a project you’ve been dog’ing for some time with help from HZP, macX3 and others ..... your project puts me to mind of my old Heathkit breadboarding and soldering iron days 🤓

Sorry for my ignorance getting in your way here, while this remains among the countless experiences foreign to me nonetheless ive seen folks talk of body-vibrating immersive piano sound experience .... just never imagined it could/might come by way of your kind of relatively low sound power “watts ‘N dBs “ project ..... which i’ll continue to follow with interest ..... on the way out, am i mistaken or has it been established here that human hearing still does OR no longer behaves logarithmically ? .... tweak on! 🙂


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Good to know that my db number is in the norm and harmless in general. On the other hand, it still does not sound loud enough. Could it be that my hearing is damaged
already? Or that I'm becoming obsessive? I don't know.


@drewr:
Thank you for replying.
Yeah that little project was a result of an obsession to have the optimum listening experience given the equipment I had such that I could use both sets of speakers in suitable conditions, just by turning a switch. In addition to that, since I could not (and still can't) afford a dedicated piano amplifier I opted to use the only available amp.

The body vibrations did not matter as much at the time and it is still an afterthought 'cause the main issue is sound loudness, which it seems is more of a perception than reality although I'd still like to pump up the volume without worrying about speaker damage which as pointed out by others, is not clear cut and depends on various parameters whose values I simply do not know, nor they are written in the specs.

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FWIW --

On "speaker damage":

The conservative assumption about DP speaker power ratings:

. . . The manufacturer will choose a driver with a power rating that
. . . matches, or just exceeds, the power of the amp driving it.

Why? -- that's the cheapest speaker that will give reasonable life expectancy.

So, if the total power of the amps is 30 watts (15 watts per channel), and there are two drivers (Left and Right, no separate tweeters),

. . . each driver will be rated for 15 watts.

If you don't want to risk speaker damage, _don't_ use higher-power amps than the DP has.

As the saying goes, you can't put three cows through a two-cow gate.

I have two PA speakers, with 8" woofers. One is a Behringer KT108 "practice amp", 15 watts. The other is an EV ZXA1 "powered monitor", with something around 300 watts RMS:

. . . Their speakers are _very_ different in power-handling capacity,
. . . weight, and cost.

You might want to look through second-hand stores for "bookshelf" hi-fi speakers. They're usually inexpensive, and you might pick up decent 5" - 8" two-way speakers (woofer + tweeter) for a good price. A pair of those, attached to the Samsung "all-in-1" amp, would likely sound better than your DP's loudspeakers. (That's especially true since you're using Pianoteq.)

IMHO, "acoustic piano sound levels" need something around 100 watts (50 watts/channel), and 5" or larger woofers, and separate tweeters. That's what manufacturers use in their higher-end DP's.


. Charles
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Read http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...%20piano%20too%20loud?.%20How%20man.html

Your experience seems quite consistent with those I have linked.


Note that the sound pressure decrease by 6dB when you double the distance. If you measure the piano 1m away, you may have a consistent point of comparison with an other measure 1m away.


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Originally Posted by meghdad
Good to know that my db number is in the norm and harmless in general. On the other hand, it still does not sound loud enough. Could it be that my hearing is damaged
already? Or that I'm becoming obsessive? I don't know.

I followed the recommended advise, but continued to tweak the volume a little further by playing several pieces back to back while recording the volume on SPL meter. In the end, I settled at 80 db at ear level as my LAeq for daily practice. It may take several days to get used to this volume if you have been used to much higher volumes. Higher volumes are still acceptable within measure. Internationally, 85 db LAeq over 8 hours per day is used as the base. The rule of thumb is that sound exposure is halved every 3 db. above 85 db LAeq. So, at 88 db LAeq, for instance, you should not exceed 4 hours of sound exposure per day. I personally would keep it on the very safe side and not exceed two hours.

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Originally Posted by meghdad
Sorry about bumpng an old thread.

My DP came with two 10 centimetres speaker drives and the builtin amp can output 25w per channe.. I have connected them to my own amp which -according to the specs- can output 40w per channel. However, the sound is rather weak (also the body vibration) if I have the amp output at half and I'm worried that by gong beyond the DP's amp watts the speakers will be damaged in the mid to long run.

Is that for certain? How can I make sure it wouldn't happen?

Sound pressure has a logarithmic relationship with power. You need a 10x increase in amplifier power to double sound pressure output by the speakers. A 250W amp surely could damage your speakers.

10cm full range drivers likely will have sound imaging that flattens as power is increased, so even if you avoid damaging the speakers, sound quality will suffer by driving them harder than what the builtin amp can do. The builtin speakers, and not the amp are your primary limiting factor.

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Oops ...
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
You need a 10x increase in amplifier power to double sound pressure output by the speakers.
You need 10x increase in power to double the perceived loudness.

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Yes, you are correct.

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The Sound Pressure Level in dB SPL is effectively the logarithm of the power (with some constants added in the formulae). But then, you need to double the power to « add » 3dB.

Perceived loudness follows an other rule. (But I don’t know the precise way to measure it).

Last edited by Frédéric L; 09/05/21 05:10 PM.

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