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Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by emenelton
I don’t mean to keep bashing it but when listening to that classical piece, there are white notes that are really louder. It’s an example of the problem.
I haven't clicked every video in this thread. Where can I find the classical piece you are talking about?

Probably the “can you play expressively” Chopin piece posted by DougM yesterday 5:23 PM..... maybe?


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Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by emenelton
I don’t mean to keep bashing it but when listening to that classical piece, there are white notes that are really louder. It’s an example of the problem.
I haven't clicked every video in this thread. Where can I find the classical piece you are talking about?

The Chopin Competition video and the Improved video, even the expressive one. If you don’t listen for it, it seems okay but it’s there and important.

For me the Chopin Competition video is incredible, I really enjoyed it. Stunning really!

When I watch it and see some of the black notes and hear them recessed; I’ve played the piano and felt the black keys hardly or not respond when you get towards the fall board, so I think JPS is correct.

I do really like the sound of it though.

There were a lot of players waiting for Casio to freshen up their PX-5s; like me.

Thanks

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Originally Posted by emenelton
When I watch it and see some of the black notes and hear them recessed; I’ve played the piano and felt the black keys hardly or not respond when you get towards the fall board, so I think JPS is correct.

That makes sense. They made pivot length shorter than any reasonable minimum (I know, hard to tell how much it is), so the black keys would feel totally unplayable near the fallboard if weighted same as the whites. So they had reduced weighting of black keys so much that the black keys became weighted less than white keys, when played far from fallboard. So the action is overly compact, too short keys, too short pivot length. Flawed.

There is one chance to making the action more playable - to lower the weighting of white keys now, so they can match the weighting of blacks. Maybe they already did in 1100 and 3100 compared to 1000 and 3000 but I really doubt.


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Originally Posted by emenelton
Originally Posted by anotherscott
I haven't clicked every video in this thread. Where can I find the classical piece you are talking about?

The Chopin Competition video and the Improved video, even the expressive one. If you don’t listen for it, it seems okay but it’s there and important.

I assume the Chopin Competition video is the "Live from Casio Studio" video in Vagfilm's 8/31 post #3151647 (because competition is mentioned in the post), but it's over an hour long. Can you help me locate a specifiic example, if you think there are a some places where it is particularly apparent?

It took me a while to find the Improved one because that word didn't come up in a text search of the thread, but a manual review shows it comes up in the graphic splash image of the "Are Improvements to Casio PX-S1100 Enough to Compete?" video in Doug's 8/30 post #3151414. And at least as far as I watched, I don't see the problem there. Specifically:

1) listen to his opening parallel thirds. Different fingers playing white and black notes at the same time, presumably intended to sound at the same volume. The black notes do not sound quieter than the simultaneously played white notes.

Simultaneously played notes would be clearest examples of notes that most likely SHOULD be sounding at the same volume, as it is both generally undersirable and also somewhat difficult to play different notes of a simultaneously played chord at different strengths. So this helps us rule out the possibility that a quieter note is intentional, as well as reducing the possibility that a quieter note was acheived accidentally through inadequate force. (Still, this passage is not conclusive, because showing that it obviously does not always happen does not prove that it might not still happen in other passages to a still disturbing extent, though there are at least a good variety of combinations here.)

2) The second most likely demonstration of notes that likely SHOULD be playing at the same volume are legato passages of some speed. Such passages generally should be played at a consistent volume, or perhaps an overall crescendo or decrescendo, but you would not expect a note in the middle of such a run to be unexpectedly quiet or loud compared to the others in the sequence (though it could still happen unintentionally due to lesser technique on the part of the player).

Getting back to the video, then, he next plays an ascending arpeggio, and on the third ascending triad, at first it appears that his pinky on the F# is unnaturally quiet... but so is the very next note, the ring finger playing the A, indicating that he did not play this triad at the strength of the previous one to begin with. In fact, in the next triad up, it is the white A that is the quietest note in the sequence! Another example is at 38 seconds where, on the descending run, the F# near the end is too quiet, but so is the E he plays immediately after.

There is no pattern here of black keys being quieter than white keys, even when noting the variation of keys sounding at different volumes when it is likely that they were not intentionally played that way... because black keys do not seem more likely to be "too quiet" than white keys do, at least in this example. Sometimes it's the white keys that are too quiet. Even as I watched a little further, anything that seemed like it may have been too quiet was as likely to be a white key as a black key. The variations we do hear in this video, then, could be attributed to less than ideal technique, or to some flaw in the piano, but either way, it does not seem to be tied to whether a key is black or white.

(I also checked the piece at the end of the "Can you play expressively" video, and I didn't see anything quiet that could not have been by intent of the player.)

I'm not denying that some players playing certain pieces may find the black keys particularly problematic. I accept that based simply on people reporting that that is their experience. I'm just saying that I'm not hearing it in the videos you cite as examples for your statement, "When I listen to YouTube demos of the 3000/1000, I can hear the recessive volume of the black notes," presumably to indicate how ever-present the problem is.

Originally Posted by pawelsz
the action is overly compact, too short keys, too short pivot length. Flawed...There is one chance to making the action more playable - to lower the weighting of white keys now, so they can match the weighting of blacks.
If you watched the clip of the JPS video I pointed you to, you'll see that that would not appear to solve the problem. JPS says that any change to the keys' weightings that might improve things in one way would make them worse in another. There is nothing that can be done except to make a keyboard with longer keys. (And Casio does make other models with longer keys, too.)

But again, I take issue with calling it "flawed" -- that depends on what the design goal was. If the goal was to make the slimmest piano that most players find playable, they probably succeeded. Moreover, the action still feels better overall than some actions with longer keys do, even if those other actions are less prone to the particular issue at hand. In that respect many actions are "flawed," just in different ways. (This is especially true of other low-cost and/or lightweight actions.) I have played Roland, Yamaha, and Fatar actions that I've really liked, but I've also played actions from all of these companies that, to me, play worse than these Casios, even though they may be more consistent in their key weighting relative to where you hit the keys. (And again, even JPS says that the black keys weighting seems well matched to the feel of the white keys IF you hit them within a certain area. The issue is how much of the area you're talking about.)

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I'll also mention that my time playing this Casio action was very brief, and was focussed somewhat on the exact issue at hand, playing Moonlight Sonata for example, which requires black keys to be hit at a range of locations across the key, while maintaining even response, and I was okay with it. (Which is not to diminish the experience of someone else who might try it and feel differently.) I did not do the kind of playing that I described earlier that prompted my complaint about the PX-5S, where notes in higher speed runs were varying in volume by more than my intent (producing what felt to me like an exaggerated dynamic range, i.e. where relatively small changes in velocity could produce larger than expected differences in volume), which was well addressed for me in an alternate downloadable piano sound for that model. It is possible that I might experience something similar in these new Casios, I don't know. I just want to qualify my previous post, in that I haven't played this action enough to really be able to tell you how satisfied I'd be with it or exactly how I'd rank it overall compared to other actions. But just going over to play it without particularly tasking its performance, I did find it more enjoyable to play than some other actions out of the box which, for example, may have felt more sluggish or somehow insufficiently responsive.

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anotherscot,

I agree with your observations. I did notice the various black and white notes both exhibiting quiet and loud ‘errant’ velocity. The videos I referred to are all in this thread.

Compared to the PX-5s, the new action overall does feel better and I would have purchased the board if it had the new sound but with the old keybed. I did not buy it however but I wanted to.

Anyways your detailed and objective rebuttal to my complaints is valid and illuminating, but also does seem to confirm JPS’ critique.


If marketing told engineering to make and the action and then, with the 3100/1100, instructed engineering to try to fix it, that might explain the uneven weights and other oddities incorporated in the action.

Thank-you for the schooling.

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Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by emenelton
I don’t mean to keep bashing it but when listening to that classical piece, there are white notes that are really louder. It’s an example of the problem.
I haven't clicked every video in this thread. Where can I find the classical piece you are talking about?

Even upon trying to watch/listen to some of the every-video-linked, i noted several hours of time to invest for all of that, but the time i spent into last night’s wee hours was more than enough to admire Hiyato Sumino’s frenetic-ball-of-energy-playing-skills ..... enough to convince me that when there is an appropriate will, there is a corresponding way for somebody to make otherwise lo-cost actions sound pleasing for anyone with the right kind of ears able or willing to hear🙂


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Originally Posted by emenelton
anotherscot,

I agree with your observations. I did notice the various black and white notes both exhibiting quiet and loud ‘errant’ velocity. The videos I referred to are all in this thread.

Compared to the PX-5s, the new action overall does feel better and I would have purchased the board if it had the new sound but with the old keybed. I did not buy it however but I wanted to.

Anyways your detailed and objective rebuttal to my complaints is valid and illuminating, but also does seem to confirm JPS’ critique.


If marketing told engineering to make and the action and then, with the 3100/1100, instructed engineering to try to fix it, that might explain the uneven weights and other oddities incorporated in the action.

Thank-you for the schooling.

In my way of looking at things, it's not the observations about the action itself that is objectionable, merely the weighting of the issue ie, being blown out of proportion in relation to the product's design philosophy. They (Casio) deserve to have their product judged according to their specific design goals, not on our misplaced expectations.

We're always looking for a product to suit our needs, so observations are useful, and if an otherwise great product doesn't quite fit, it can be frustrating, but we move on to something else.

I guess in a way, it's a complement to Casio that people like the sound and aesthetics enough to be disappointed that the action has been compromised a tad for the sake of reduced weight/improved portability. Maybe there is scope for Casio to market a deeper version too (at the next product cycle round), with an update of the PX560' system action.

The over-zealous criticism of the product for not being another product design by reviewers is a misrepresentation: putting in the minds of less experienced buyers that the PX-S1000/3000 are equivalent in design approach and therefore directly competiting with other heavier portables.

I do not think JPS purposely does it out of a beef with Casio. Rather, I think he's misunderstood the value of the trade-off for the main consumer of these instruments. For instance, more pros are going to make use of the portability of the instrument than beginners. Beginners are maybe going to buy these instruments if space is an issue for them or if they really want auto-accompaniment.

Also, as Stu points out, for people who aren't used to more conventional actions, this action is significantly better than some Fatar actions and for those who are more experienced, it's not so hard to adapt to the action. Then, you can make use of the instrument in beach gigs etc, and take advantage of the advantages without the experience being over spoiled by different biomechanics required to adapt to the action.

The cost is really low too, so we're looking at a high value low cost marketing model, something that smaller companies often use to compete with larger firms in niche market segments.


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Originally Posted by Doug M.
this action is significantly better than some Fatar actions

Quite remarkably, the only hammer action I've enjoyed recently was a Casio in some generic home piano model.

Blew away each and every Fatar and, hate to admit it, every incarnation of Korg RH3 except perhaps the Kronos ones.

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I have owned my Casio PX-s3000 for a little over a year now. I play it an hour or two most days.
I also own a Baldwin Acrosonic that has been in our family since new, and I had it tuned about 3 months ago.
I spend 90% of my practice/playing time on the Casio, 10% on my acoustic (which I might add, looks and plays like it did when it was new).

The only complaint I have about the Casio is the I have been enjoying it so much as a piano that I have not taken the time to learn how to operate Rhythms, Accompaniments and the other 690 voices that it is capable of. Those things are still a complicated mystery to me. I only use it in Grand Piano Concert mode, sometimes Mellow, sometimes (Rock songs) in Bright mode.

The weighting of the keys is not an issue for me because I don't weigh them, I strike them with my fingers just like on my Baldwin, and I can't tell the difference.
If I play the white keys on my Baldwin one inch from the fallboard, they feel exactly the same as when I play the Casio white keys one inch from the fallboard.

By the way, the guy who tuned my Acrosonic commented that the reason they were so popular in the 60's was because of their unusually light touch and booming sound for such a small-footprint piano.

In my mind, especially at the beginning of Covid, the $750 I spent on the Casio was one of the best investments I ever made. It has brought me a huge amount of joy and improved my rusty skills more than I thought possible at age 67.

It might not compare to a nice Steinway Grand, and I'm sure my Baldwin acoustic doesn't compare to one either.
But until I can buy the Steinway for $750, my PX-S3000 is still my go-to choice and I am not disappointed with it in any way.

Y'alls have your opinions and your reviews, so snipe away if you like.
I'm going to go play my Casio.


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Originally Posted by trooplewis
The weighting of the keys is not an issue for me because I don't weigh them, I strike them with my fingers just like on my Baldwin, and I can't tell the difference.

Y'alls have your opinions and your reviews, so snipe away if you like.
I'm going to go play my Casio.


That's kinda what I was trying to say too, though I've found from experience my comments don't hold any weight on this forumconfused (Pardon the pun)
I find that typically for anything to do with the brain, eventually with exposure, it starts to ignore things. I think it's the same with keybeds. Initially I can tell the nuances of playing a particular set of keys, then eventually my brain starts to ignore the difference and I even have to consciously try to notice that difference, but it seems to have largely vanished. The Casio feels different to my acoustic, and I did buy it to be a lightweight, so I'm happy. I don't notice the playing difference, because my calibrated scales in my fingers for the Casio have diminished with frequent use. I find it amusing for people to only concentrate on the technical numbers and not the actual playing experience, especially if it's a debate where the person hasn't given their mind time to settle in to the feel. I have the same effect when comparing keybeds with squishy bottoms. At first I notice the difference, then eventually it magically is not noticeable.
Same with the Casio, play it for long enough, and I don't see what all the fuss is about smile

It's like when someone goes in to the music shop, and rattles a few keys on one keyboard, and says, nup don't like that one. That's a pretty superficial try, and they are only doing themselves a disservice.

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Originally Posted by emenelton
When his left hand is doing the arpeggiating, some of the white notes sound a lot louder than the black ones.

So he is not able to compensate for the difference in touch. As expected.

In general using only digital pianos for practice as a beginner will make your technique suffer heavily in various more or less obvious ways:

- Poor dynamic control caused by an overall too low instrument volume

- Poor dynamic control caused by missing velocity layers

- Poor dynamic control caused by improper pivot placement creating huge weight difference between the front and the back of the keys (especially for black keys)

- Poor dynamic control caused by improper weight grading

- Poor energy management due too missing (real hammer) escapement overbearing muscles and joints

- Touch differences between black and white keys on really low-end trash actions

Some of these issues are avoidable by shelling out an amount of money that would buy you an acoustic piano new.

There more I know what's in the market, the less I'm going to recommend digital pianos to beginners.


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Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by emenelton
When his left hand is doing the arpeggiating, some of the white notes sound a lot louder than the black ones.

So he is not able to compensate for the difference in touch. As expected.

In general using only digital pianos for practice as a beginner will make your technique suffer heavily in various more or less obvious ways:

- Poor dynamic control caused by an overall too low instrument volume

- Poor dynamic control caused by missing velocity layers

- Poor dynamic control caused by improper pivot placement creating huge weight difference between the front and the back of the keys (especially for black keys)

- Poor dynamic control caused by improper weight grading

- Poor energy management due too missing (real hammer) escapement overbearing muscles and joints

- Touch differences between black and white keys on really low-end trash actions

Some of these issues are avoidable by shelling out an amount of money that would buy you an acoustic piano new.

There more I know what's in the market, the less I'm going to recommend digital pianos to beginners.
Well, if beginners don't get digitals, there will be no more beginners. Very few people can afford, or have the space for an acoustic.

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Originally Posted by Skropi
Well, if beginners don't get digitals, there will be no more beginners. Very few people can afford, or have the space for an acoustic.
Finally, some common sense in this thread... What a relief.

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Originally Posted by vagfilm
Originally Posted by Skropi
Well, if beginners don't get digitals, there will be no more beginners. Very few people can afford, or have the space for an acoustic.
Finally, some common sense in this thread... What a relief.

+1!

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There are second hand piano which can make acoustic piano affordable. There are less risk than with a second hand digital piano but an expertise is recommended. Some also rent an acoustic piano.

About the size, the more significant dimensions is the width and a 88 key keyboard is roughly as wide on a digital and on an acoustic piano. Especially since Yamaha and Kawai put the screen at the left side. But sure, we can found some narrower pianos (Yamaha P121, Korg LP380 73, but I have also learn about small acoustic piano too).

Last edited by Frédéric L; 09/11/21 04:39 PM.

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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
About the size, the more significant dimensions is the width and a 88 key keyboard is roughly as wide on a digital and on an acoustic piano.
"Size" encompasses many things. You're talking about a piece of furniture that becomes a permanent part of a room's decor, vs. something you could, for example, move in and out of a room as needed, store under a bed, put in your car when you move, etc. And your idea of similar cost doesn't include that an acoustic requires also paying for periodic tuning, as well as paying to have people deliver it, and likely the greater difficulty of finding a buyer for it if and when necessary which may mean taking a greater loss.

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Originally Posted by Skropi
Well, if beginners don't get digitals, there will be no more beginners. Very few people can afford, or have the space for an acoustic.

Real upright pianos are not expensive (like an iPhone is), they are just inconvenient. And the demographics who spends on digitals is just choosing the most convenient option. Humans naturally do.

They don't know the huge list of disadvantages from a musical perspective. They don't know how a beginner is hindered from learning essential technique properly and gets stuck with only a digital practice tool available.

The exact same thing happens with people choose an app over a piano teacher for convenience.


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Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Skropi
Well, if beginners don't get digitals, there will be no more beginners. Very few people can afford, or have the space for an acoustic.

Real upright pianos are not expensive (like an iPhone is), they are just inconvenient. And the demographics who spends on digitals is just choosing the most convenient option. Humans naturally do.

They don't know the huge list of disadvantages from a musical perspective. They don't know how a beginner is hindered from learning essential technique properly and gets stuck with only a digital practice tool available.

The exact same thing happens with people choose an app over a piano teacher for convenience.

By that same logic, we should all be using typewriters to hone our typing skills rather than computer keyboards. Totally different feel.

The thought process in this thread and in the entire acoustic/digital discussions is full of opinion and reviews and very little substance as to the reality of what our brains can adjust to.

Going from a Steinway grand to a Yamaha upright might be just as difficult for some as going from a digital to an acoustic...but our brain figures it out and adjusts.

People who drive BMWs might not be comfortable driving a Hyundai, but they make the adjustment and still retain the same driving skills regardless of the vehicle. This is the way human brains work, they are adaptable.

Last edited by trooplewis; 09/11/21 10:21 PM.

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Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Skropi
Well, if beginners don't get digitals, there will be no more beginners. Very few people can afford, or have the space for an acoustic.

Real upright pianos are not expensive (like an iPhone is), they are just inconvenient. And the demographics who spends on digitals is just choosing the most convenient option. Humans naturally do.

They don't know the huge list of disadvantages from a musical perspective. They don't know how a beginner is hindered from learning essential technique properly and gets stuck with only a digital practice tool available.

The exact same thing happens with people choose an app over a piano teacher for convenience.
You can get a digital for less than 1000€, while you need at least double that for a decent, used acoustic. The difference is not insignificant. There is also the matter of space. It really is not possible for many to fit an acoustic in their house. I could possibly make it work, but I am no living alone, so....
Personally I would love an acoustic, but I would need to spend around 3500€ for one, while for 1500€ I can get a decent p515.
I do agree in one thing though, if I could get an acoustic, I certainly would.

Last edited by Skropi; 09/12/21 12:44 AM.
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