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Point for discussion
Do you agree? Do you believe it is better for the rim to have no effect on the sound of a piano?

I wonder whether it is due to difficulty in describing a conceptually complex idea, or simply lost in translation, but my own read on Fazioli's description is that the vibration of soundboard should not go to the rim much. That is, the rim should vibrate as little as possible, with (my own extrapolation) less energy lost in the rim.

In this sense, it is not the same to say the rim would have no effect on the sound of a piano. In fact it does, trying not to waste energy.

This is certain the opposite of what Bosendorfer describes about their resonance case principle. I raised a question in another thread, though, that as Bosendorfer's solid-spruce rim is actually quite thick, does such a rim truly vibrate?

Without having any qualified base to say so my guess is that yes, it must, though probably only to only a trivial degree. For evidence think how even something as stiff and massive as concrete can carry sound waves across rooms. As anyone building an anechoic chamber can tell it's not easy to fully absorb this energy. In theory it's the string vibrations, which are amplified by the soundboard, that make the desirable spectrum of noises your ear perceives as music. You don't want this sound to be distorted by anything else. Not any other part of the piano including, arguably, the rim itself. Where I think it crosses from theory to marketing hype is whether any of this has a perceptible effect.

I’ve only gotten to play two Bosendorfers so far. The whole piano seems to respond to my playing. I don’t know how this is achieved but I wish every piano could do this. I’ve never played a Fazioli.

It would be fun to play the same sized Fazioli and Bosendorfer side by side to compare but in reality for me that would be like driving a race ready Ferrari and then a race ready Ford GT500. Fun fantasy daydream but my wallet and skill at driving or playing piano is simply inadequate.

Could be a fun thread! Or we could get dragged down by arguing about arguing. 🙂

No clue. I just care what the finished piano sounds like.

What the finished piano sounds like is a clue, if not the clue. Joseph Fleetwood described the sound of a Fazioli well here:


You may think that sound is the result of Fazioli's efforts to maximise the isolation of the soundboard from the rim.

There's no shortage of opinions on this topic. There does appear however to be very little if any actual fact-based science to support the notion of the rim contributing in a positive way to the tone of a piano - by way of the rim resonating itself.

If the rim does vibrate - and assuming that it does, how do those vibrations affect the sound that we hear? There must be certain frequencies that the resonance occurs at - but can those actually be heard? How do those frequencies affect the frequencies (within the audible range of human hearing) transmitted by the soundboard? Are they harmed or enhanced? (It could be both depending on the specific ranges of the frequencies.)

Again, perhaps there are some meaningful studies on this that have been published, but I've not seen them. Perhaps someone here on the forum can provide links to them.

My sense of logic (which could be way off base) suggests that the rim should not vibrate. In doing so, it seems that those vibrations would negatively interfere with the vibrations and sound coming from the soundboard. I see a relationship to the piano rim with the cabinet of the Bowers & Wilkins Nautilus 800 speaker. The hard laminations, mass, and shape of that cabinet were purposely designed to not resonate - so that the speakers could do their job in faithfully reproducing high fidelity sound.

So it all really depends on exactly what one is TRYING to achieve.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

I agree with Fazioli here and agree with Davdoc's interpretation. However, I also love the older design Bosendorfers that take an opposite approach and achieve a kind of intimate quality not often found in other pianos, including their new designs.

With that, as I have said many times, there are many many ingredients that influence the sound and sound potential of a piano and this is just one of them. We have done a lot of experimenting at PianoCraft, but we have not ever compared two pianos with everything identical with the exception of one rim being say like a Fazioli/Steingraeber style and one rim being like a Bosendorfer or a vintage Bluthner.

We have increased the structural rigidity of soft, absorbent rims in which the sound was initially weak with the result of improved power and sustain, but while encouraged by results like that in individual instances, I can't say that I would want to do that in another softer more absorbent rim design in which I would call the sound intimate and beautiful rather than weak.

I always find it curious that the smaller Bosedorfer's all have a vertically laminated rim while the larger ones have the blocked up spruce rime. The smaller grands are more recent designs. So it is an obvious conclusion Bosendorfer also thought the laminated rim was better but never got around to switching the bigger, older scales to it.

I think the marketing spiel about blocked up rims is more of: "It is not a bug, it is a feature."

Hello Ed, this is not correct. Bösendorfer's rims are not vertically laminated. Additionally, the 170 (currently the smallest size) is definitely not a recent design. The 185, 214 & 280 were all introduced between 1999-2002, so those would be the younger designs, and each of these was further redesigned to the current 185VC, 214VC & 280VC...different, but still not vertically laminated.

I've included a photo of 4 x Bösendorfer 170 rims taken at my factory visit in 2019. There is a horizontally laminated hardwood element where the back leg attaches (more secure).

While the rest of the industry has chosen to make a laminated rim, there is a place for Bösendorfer still among the elite performing instruments still today. It's clear that there is more than one way to make a good piano.

I'm happy to provide correct information. I'm not sure how you arrived at your previous information, but I'm only bothered by the speculative part of your conclusions. Given how you deeply study your own work, I hope you will incorporate this information into your own conclusions about Bösendorfer's methods.

To the OP's question, the nature of a laminate rim is to isolate the soundboard and more efficiently confine its energy. Most grand rims are laminate rims. It is a simplified statement from Fazioli, designed for public consumption, not a complete set of engineered parameters. So I can agree with it in simple terms.

Where it gets interesting is when considering other parameters. Thickness, composition (choice of wood and glues) and in particular, the way the soundboard and rim are connected. Surely, other materials are better than laminate wood for acoustic isolation, but to what other effect on the final sound? or cost? or longevity? etc.

I agree with Sam saying that Fazioli's statment is for general public cosumption. Essentially, as with any instrument, the whole instrument has to vibrate as a single unit. And, Thank you for the pics of the Bose 170 rims. (nice rim shot)

Evidently the sound of this Fazioli F212 is a result of the design concept of minimising energy transfer between the soundboard and the rim. For the most part all you hear is the vibration of the strings transduced by the soundboard. In other words Fazioli have done the best they can to engineer a neutral palette for the pianist.

Fazioli's quote about the rim was too good to miss but the original question I had in mind was this. Does the soundboard or the rim have a greater influence on sound, tone and timbre?

Thinking aloud, the answer is the rim. This influence can range, so to speak, from as little as possible, like Fazioli, to as much as possible. Would Bosendorfer, Yamaha SX (ARE) and M&H (Resonator) be in the second category? Is Steinway a case apart?

Interesting--- sort of a clean-scrubbed Bechstein sound. Much to recommend it, but I can see how some might be left cold.

Insightful description!

As my technician also happens to be the local Fazioli dealer, I have had some access to new Faziolis over the years. While I can certainly empathise with view of clean, almost sterile sound, my own experience suggests the Fazioli tone may be a bit more malleable commonly perceived.

Case in point was a Fazioli 278 brought in for Angela Hewitt's recital a few years back. Fresh out of the crate, the sound was certainly clean and neutral- rather close to the sound in Goran Filipec's video above, and frankly not to my tastes. But after a year, the sound had blossomed - a slightly mellower attack that still possessed the trademark Fazioli clarity, coupled with the appearance of more complex overtones. Either way, the result was closer to my preference. Here's some videos of that instrument after the changes, imperfectly played and recorded, but hopefully it gives some idea of what I am talking about

Those are inner rims pictured. When you see a case with rounded corners, it is a vertically laminated rim.

Is it possible that you are talking about a couple of layers of veneer on top of these "inner rims"? I would imagine that outer veneer layers are necessary to providing an even and smooth layer for coating, but not more.

Here is the "outer rim" of a Fazioli to encase the "inner rim" shown above in the OP. As I recall, Fazioli say they use thicker veneers to help with acoustic isolation of the soundboard.