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Originally Posted by pawelsz
Originally Posted by _sem_
Originally Posted by pawelsz
...
Unweighted keys even poor ones, don't make such trouble because they are so light that you hardly notice any resistance so you can't sometimes even tell if the resistance is even or uneven. ...

Erhm, I wouldn't agree. I've got a cheapo Yamaha synth. It has light touch at the beginning of keys. But it gets annoyingly heavy at the fallboard, where it feels like squishing rubber, for example the left hand in Brubeck's Take Five is like working out, just like with PX-S wink

Two different issues. You are talking about unevenness between front and back of the same key. It is natural for every action, even real grand piano action because the key is just a lever.
I was talking about uneven touch on the ends of white and black key, because the black keys are shorter to the pivot point in digital piano.
Also, unweighted cheap controllers often have the resistance in the keys only from bubble contacts deformation during working and plastic keys just bending in the back so it really is not comparable to any type of hammer action designed to imitate grand piano action. Some others have springs. In that cases you rather expect the black keys to be harder to press on their end than longer white keys. Obviously unless lighter springs are used for black keys. Right?

With the PX-S I've initially noticed the stiffness near the fallboard due to the extra-short pivot (among weighted keys). After the ground-breaking research of JPS I did notice that the whites are actually heavier at the fallboard than the blacks. So the first is the main issue for me. Yes, simple physics.
Regarding light synth actions, I generally agree with your assessment of the background. I guess there is a light spring, and the rubber switch dominates towards the bottom. Thing is, when pressed at the tip the key feels light (and the rubber effect is hardly noticeable), but near the fallboard it demands a lot of force (and the rubber thing gets very disturbing). Another foldable travel cheapo has stronger springs already annoying at the key tip and proportionally stronger near the fallboard, hence the rubber effect not so evident. I didn't pay attention white vs black.

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Originally Posted by _sem_
With the PX-S I've initially noticed the stiffness near the fallboard due to the extra-short pivot (among weighted keys). After the ground-breaking research of JPS I did notice that the whites are actually heavier at the fallboard than the blacks. So the first is the main issue for me. Yes, simple physics. .

That's no discussion. The longer pivot, the more comfort near the fallboard. Obvious.

Yeah, that is the effect seen in probably digital piano every action good or bad. But seen from the other side. If the longer white keys have heavier weights if you press white keys near fallboard, and black on the same distance from fallboard, the whites will feel a bit heavier. But the point is in most cases you play white keys more in front part (far from fallboard) , not between shorter black ones (near fallboard) .


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Originally Posted by pawelsz
... But the point is in most cases you play white keys more in front part (far from fallboard) , not between shorter black ones (near fallboard) .

A further point along this direction is to stick to C major / a minor and play white keys at the tips only, or the pentatonic scale with the black keys at the tips only smile smile smile Then even JPS couldn't deny the greatness of PX-S!

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But the point is in most cases you play white keys more in front part (far from fallboard) , not between shorter black ones (near fallboard) .

I would agree with that. Particularly with runs or scales.

Given the compromise of a short pivot, it was probably a good decision to lighten the black keys.


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Originally Posted by pawelsz
Two different issues. You are talking about unevenness between front and back of the same key. It is natural for every action, even real grand piano action because the key is just a lever.
I was talking about uneven touch on the ends of white and black key, because the black keys are shorter to the pivot point in digital piano.
Also, unweighted cheap controllers often have the resistance in the keys only from bubble contacts deformation during working and plastic keys just bending in the back so it really is not comparable to any type of hammer action designed to imitate grand piano action. Some others have springs. In that cases you rather expect the black keys to be harder to press on their end than longer white keys. Obviously unless lighter springs are used for black keys. Right?

Creating an action with an even force on the entire key surface is very possible. There is no need to have levers on a digital piano, as there are no hammers to throw, all you need is weights.

However Casio's approach was simply cost-cutting: A much cheaper action with less material and less parts selling at the same price point as the old one just means more revenue for Casio.

A new really compact action design without a short lever would be a premium product.


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Originally Posted by JoeT
There is no need to have levers on a digital piano, as there are no hammers to throw, all you need is weights.

That is the spirit. Stupid archimedes... Dumb Newton... Who needs physics?. .. A key without hammer is no longer a lever... Brilliant. Why no one thought of that?

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Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by pawelsz
Two different issues. You are talking about unevenness between front and back of the same key. It is natural for every action, even real grand piano action because the key is just a lever.
I was talking about uneven touch on the ends of white and black key, because the black keys are shorter to the pivot point in digital piano.
Also, unweighted cheap controllers often have the resistance in the keys only from bubble contacts deformation during working and plastic keys just bending in the back so it really is not comparable to any type of hammer action designed to imitate grand piano action. Some others have springs. In that cases you rather expect the black keys to be harder to press on their end than longer white keys. Obviously unless lighter springs are used for black keys. Right?

Creating an action with an even force on the entire key surface is very possible. There is no need to have levers on a digital piano, as there are no hammers to throw, all you need is weights.

However Casio's approach was simply cost-cutting: A much cheaper action with less material and less parts selling at the same price point as the old one just means more revenue for Casio.

A new really compact action design without a short lever would be a premium product.

What's the empirical basis for that accusation?

Last edited by Doug M.; 08/31/21 10:11 AM.

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Originally Posted by vagfilm
Originally Posted by JoeT
There is no need to have levers on a digital piano, as there are no hammers to throw, all you need is weights.

That is the spirit. Stupid archimedes... Dumb Newton... Who needs physics?. .. A key without hammer is no longer a lever... Brilliant. Why no one thought of that?

The AHA-IV-F action of the ES100 has the hammer pivots (which are separate from the key pivots) placed below the keys. The keys themselves are pivoted too (at a generous 21 centimeters from the front unlike its successor ES110), but that isn't actually necessary to work the hammer levers in that action. Non-pivoted keys (like that spacebar in that mechanical computer keyboard in front of you) would just work as well.

However such a complete action redesign requires actual engineering effort, which is the opposite of cost-cutting.

Originally Posted by Doug M.
Originally Posted by JoeT
However Casio's approach was simply cost-cutting: A much cheaper action with less material and less parts selling at the same price point as the old one just means more revenue for Casio.

A new really compact action design without a short lever would be a premium product.

What's the empirical basis for that accusation?

That's strong wording for something that obvious: The new action is very light (including the black key weights), very compromised and is missing a third sensor. Compared to its predecessor it's an inferior and cheaper product.


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Originally Posted by _sem_
Originally Posted by pawelsz
... But the point is in most cases you play white keys more in front part (far from fallboard) , not between shorter black ones (near fallboard) .

A further point along this direction is to stick to C major / a minor and play white keys at the tips only, or the pentatonic scale with the black keys at the tips only smile smile smile Then even JPS couldn't deny the greatness of PX-S!

Yeah in those two cases there will be no difference at all, hahahaha laugh. But we shouldn't limit ourselves to those scales.
Again it is natural that you rather play white keys hitting them at longer distance from the fulcrum than the black keys. Imagine even fast trills with one black and one white key a semitone up or down.
Obviously this not always works and some chords or passages need various hand and finger positions that sometimes there is optimal to play a white key really close to the fallboard. And this is where poor actions show poor performance...


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Originally Posted by JoeT
That's strong wording for something that obvious: The new action is very light (including the black key weights), very compromised and is missing a third sensor. Compared to its predecessor it's an inferior and cheaper product.

Yeah, the predecessor was Tri-Sensor Scaled Hammer Action (maybe with "II" added) , also quite short but fairly playable, very light, IIRC. Thanks for reminding that the "improved" action is so cool it even doesn't need third sensor to be better action as Casio marketing specialists say.

Yeah, ES100 action had very long pivot length for that price. Probably Korg D1 with RH3 is the only longer one in this budget. But the new Kawai RH-C in ES110 isn't ba d IIRC.


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Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by vagfilm
Originally Posted by JoeT
There is no need to have levers on a digital piano, as there are no hammers to throw, all you need is weights.

That is the spirit. Stupid archimedes... Dumb Newton... Who needs physics?. .. A key without hammer is no longer a lever... Brilliant. Why no one thought of that?

The AHA-IV-F action of the ES100 has the hammer pivots (which are separate from the key pivots) placed below the keys. The keys themselves are pivoted too (at a generous 21 centimeters from the front unlike its successor ES110), but that isn't actually necessary to work the hammer levers in that action. Non-pivoted keys (like that spacebar in that mechanical computer keyboard in front of you) would just work as well.

However such a complete action redesign requires actual engineering effort, which is the opposite of cost-cutting.

Originally Posted by Doug M.
Originally Posted by JoeT
However Casio's approach was simply cost-cutting: A much cheaper action with less material and less parts selling at the same price point as the old one just means more revenue for Casio.

A new really compact action design without a short lever would be a premium product.

What's the empirical basis for that accusation?

That's strong wording for something that obvious: The new action is very light (including the black key weights), very compromised and is missing a third sensor. Compared to its predecessor it's an inferior and cheaper product.

Soz, let me clarify: I meant evidence showing Casio have actively engaged in cost-cutting, using cheap materials, etc on purpose to save on cost?

As far as I'm aware (from Casio's own videos etc), they purposely chose to make the most portable light-weight design possible; thus, the size requirements of the case and overall compactness of the design simply led to action compromise relating to the physical restrictions. I've not read nor heard anything about purposeful choice of poor quality materials etc.

Also, not having a triple sensor on such a smaller action mechanism might just be a space issue, or because the market segment doesn't need triple sensors. Some pretty good pianos don't have triple sensors e.g., Nord Stage 3!

It's one thing to say that you feel an action is too light, or the key balance between white and black keys aren't as even as compared with other models (with all the details); however, it's another to say that a company purposefully made the choice to use less durable materials, etc., purely to save on money. That sort of accusation might make people think Casio build quality might be rubbish, or unreliable. I wouldn't want people to assume that without some sort of data, even if it's just 10 users leaving posts saying as much.

It's fine if you actually don't know, and you're just equating an action you don't like with the assumption of cheapness, but I think we should clarify that.


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Originally Posted by vagfilm
Originally Posted by JoeT
There is no need to have levers on a digital piano, as there are no hammers to throw, all you need is weights.

That is the spirit. Stupid archimedes... Dumb Newton... Who needs physics?. .. A key without hammer is no longer a lever... Brilliant. Why no one thought of that?


JoeT can speak for himself BUT i took his point to mean there is no need for DP’s to have as much lever/physics/keystick that most of them presently do.... possibly because most of them, for the present, continue to fail at faithfully emulating what the correlating AP physics/levers accomplish..... then all you need is lov er, um, weight

plus that significant effect CyberGene has witnessed here several times after his in-depth analysis and commentary of what really makes a DP action feel inadequate “notably different” to him compared to a typical AP action..... and he’s also said a time or two “ we all have different ears” , which i extend to “ we all have different perceptions for the same or similar stimuli” and this affects everything each of us in the world - PW or the whole smash world - experiences and subsequently attempts to communucate by spoken word .... typed-texted word .... grunts ..... drums ..... smoke signals .... for everything under the sun and including the sun ....

Last edited by drewr; 08/31/21 11:13 AM.

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JoeT: non pivot midi controllers exist for a number of years, without any huge success (either in piano shape or as isomorphic layouts). Cybergene used one and found it entertaining. But that is changing the whole biomechnical approach to piano playing. Is that what you propose as a solution?

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Originally Posted by drewr
Originally Posted by vagfilm
Originally Posted by JoeT
There is no need to have levers on a digital piano, as there are no hammers to throw, all you need is weights.

That is the spirit. Stupid archimedes... Dumb Newton... Who needs physics?. .. A key without hammer is no longer a lever... Brilliant. Why no one thought of that?


JoeT can speak for himself BUT i took his point to mean there is no need for DP’s to have as much lever/physics/keystick that most of them presently do.... possibly because most of them, for the present, continue to fail at faithfully emulating what the correlating AP physics/levers accomplish..... then all you need is lov er, um, weight

plus that significant effect CyberGene has witnessed here several times after his in-depth analysis and commentary of what really makes a DP action feel inadequate “notably different” to him compared to a typical AP action..... and he’s also said a time or two “ we all have different ears” , which i extend to “ we all have different perceptions for the same or similar stimuli” and this affects everything each of us in the world - PW or the whole smash world - experiences and subsequently attempts to communucate by spoken word .... typed-texted word .... grunts ..... drums ..... smoke signals .... for everything under the sun and including the sun ....

Point 1:
If you're going to talk specifically about the action, there ought to be some comparison pictures posted to show how it the action compares to other boards, rather than some conjecture.
Let's actually compare the action, and properly discuss it. If you have any design proposals as to how they might make a similarly small action play more like an acoustic, I'm sure such feedback would be welcomed wink.

Point 2:
The conversations seems intent on highlighting the action weaknesses on a portable piano designed for very being ultra-portable

These are the main selling points:
S-1000/S1100 - simple ultra-portable (light, small, easy to carry --- for long trips to the beach), runs of batteries, fits into tight car spaces, elegant looking
S-3000/S3100 - more sounds, auto-accompaniment, ultra-portable, runs of batteries, fits into tight car spaces, elegant looking

[Linked Image]

Compare to the main selling points of the ES110: best action in a portable piano at the price point; pretty good piano sound for the price; plays expressively more like a piano than any other model at that price point.

You've got two totally different customers for two different design philosophies, and the customers buying the Casio aren't looking for worlds best action at that price: they want a battery powered piano with 88 keys that will fit into a Mini or Fiat!!
What does it therefore matter if you are correct about how good the action is? It plays as good as it needs to for the purposes of the customers who buy it.


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I do not have any problems with Casio’s efforts/motives particularly for the 2 models in question, nor do i have any with jps or anyone else who may critically OR glowingly review these or other brands/models, nor do i have redesign suggestions to make the necessary fixes to the actions of nearly all brands & models therein ..... i simply added my 2cents thus far for a thread that i hope stays on the cordial side rather than drifting more towards ad-hominem..... may this thread continue in peace 🙂

Last edited by drewr; 08/31/21 12:03 PM.

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Originally Posted by drewr
I do not have any problems with Casio’s efforts/motives particularly for the 2 models in question, nor do i have any with jps or anyone else who may critically OR glowingly review these or other brands/models, nor do i have redesign suggestions to make the necessary fixes to the actions of nearly all brands & models therein ..... i simply added my 2cents thus far for a thread that i hope stays on the cordial side rather than drifting more towards ad-hominem..... may this thread continue in peace 🙂

Sorry if it comes across as hostile: certainly not intended.

Unlike my friends 6 year old daughter, I have no ongoing revenge list to record my beefs wink laugh

That said, I would love to see this thread ---which is about two new instrument updates --- explore some positive things though.


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@DougM - none taken 😉


Here is some feedback (from it’s own thread) that includes positive remarks for the 1000’s action albeit in the context of hunting another board which is lighter when lugging to gigs along with other accessories.


Originally Posted by Hugh R Heinsohn
Hi everyone,

I play in swing jams frequently and am getting tired of lugging my Casio PX-S1000 around, along with the stand, bench, and amp. (The amp makes the Casio PX-S1000 sound a lot better in jam situations.) The action on the PX-S1000 is excellent, but I'm willing to compromise on that to have something that weighs less but will still sound good (like a real piano as much as possible) when played through an amp .....


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Originally Posted by drewr
@DougM - none taken 😉


Here is some feedback (from it’s own thread) that includes positive remarks for the 1000’s action albeit in the context of hunting another board which is lighter when lugging to gigs along with other accessories.


Originally Posted by Hugh R Heinsohn
Hi everyone,

I play in swing jams frequently and am getting tired of lugging my Casio PX-S1000 around, along with the stand, bench, and amp. (The amp makes the Casio PX-S1000 sound a lot better in jam situations.) The action on the PX-S1000 is excellent, but I'm willing to compromise on that to have something that weighs less but will still sound good (like a real piano as much as possible) when played through an amp .....

LOL, ironic: the action is awesome, but it's too heavy... Beauty really is in the eye of the beholder.

Talking of reviews, there are some pianists who are quite able to get expression from the PX-S3000, even to play some Chopin...



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When his left hand is doing the arpeggiating, some of the white notes sound a lot louder than the black ones.

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Here's a comparison video between the FP30X and the PX-S3000 by Stu Harrison.



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