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Originally Posted by David-G
Originally Posted by tre corda
Now I wonder what on earth could inspired Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven,and Schubert to write all those piano works.I wonder why they dressed so oddly? I mean those dreadful wigs and frills? How could Mozat write, what ..20 piano concertos, many distinctly for the forte piano and not the harpsichord. Wow what a fool! I mean then actually performing them in public on those tin cans? OK we know the man was not very successful in his own day.But he was known as a pianist.Even the dumbest aristocracy busy picking their noses during a performance could have told you that.

That Moonlight sonata written for what type of instrument? I
mean just stick your foot down on the sustainig pedal at beginning of the Adagio and hold the pedal down forever into eternity? Perhaps it was magical? Try that today on modern piano, see what happens???
The Presto Agitato, I mean why write, why be inspired to write
such a piece when you could not get the affect that you wanted.Just imagine the frustration?Then he goes on writes the Tempest, the Appasionata and much more?
The Mozart concerto K466 written for a junkie fortepiano.The man must have been thick! 😳
But of course! They were composing just music for us..

+1 !!
The fact that Mozart wrote concerti for the forte piano and not the harpsichord means he thought the forte piano was superior to the harpsichord. Since the forte piano could vary dynamics this is not surprising. None of this means he would have preferred the forte piano to a piano from the late 1800s or one from today.

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Originally Posted by dogperson
Listen to the tone in this forte piano at about 10:00

Thanks dogsperson,
The section of the Waldstein (later on) played on that forte piano was intriguing.The Schubert 2 hand played by the teacher and her student was wonderful.These were copy instruments, it makes me feel that while we have gained so much in modern instruments we have also lost so much
Where would you find a silvery tone like that in a modern piano?
It was interesting what that teacher was explaining how early instruments can teach students to play and interpret that music.Yes there were tuning problems and the piano technicians or "piano engineers"(I wonder what they were called?) must have been very busy.Tuning between movements of a sonata must have been commonplace,but regarded as normal.Still I believe they would not have thought much of the tone of a modern piano.I personally would love to own one of those forte pianos. (a copy probably would be best,only a dream) Yes it sounded weird at 10.00...
My 1920's Feurich has a different sound being a vintage piano.Of course nothing like one of these but also a different soul to a the modern pianos of today.

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For those here decrying the fortepiano, I would like to relate my own experience.

As people will probably know, I have a very beautiful Bluthner grand piano. For the last several years I have also had an early Broadwood square piano, dated 1804 (with 5 1/2 octaves). This is in effect a fortepiano - wooden frame, light construction, leather hammers, string tension much lower than in a modern instrument.

And I find myself on the whole playing more on the Broadwood than the Bluthner. Why?

* I prefer playing Haydn/Mozart/Beethoven to the Romantic composers, and it is a thrill to play an instrument made in Haydn's lifetime.
* The instrument is simply exquisite, both in looks and in tone.
* The extremely light touch makes execution of rapid ornaments extremely easy.
* The timbre of the bass is completely different from the treble. The parts therefore stand out clearly instead of getting blurred together. This makes an enormous difference to - for instance - the development section of the Adagio of Haydn's Hob.XVI/49.
* The light touch and the short sustain mean phrasing and articulation can be heard much more clearly than on a modern instrument, so that subtleties of staccato, subtleties of articulation make an enormous difference and assume vital importance. This adds a whole dimension and challenge to playing music of this period, which I find enormously stimulating and rewarding.
* It all feels and sounds so "right"!

I can assure you that the Broadwood does not go out of tune before I finish a piece. With careful control of humidity in the room, it stays in reasonable tune for months.

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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by David-G
Originally Posted by tre corda
Now I wonder what on earth could inspired Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven,and Schubert to write all those piano works.I wonder why they dressed so oddly? I mean those dreadful wigs and frills? How could Mozat write, what ..20 piano concertos, many distinctly for the forte piano and not the harpsichord. Wow what a fool! I mean then actually performing them in public on those tin cans? OK we know the man was not very successful in his own day.But he was known as a pianist.Even the dumbest aristocracy busy picking their noses during a performance could have told you that.

That Moonlight sonata written for what type of instrument? I
mean just stick your foot down on the sustainig pedal at beginning of the Adagio and hold the pedal down forever into eternity? Perhaps it was magical? Try that today on modern piano, see what happens???
The Presto Agitato, I mean why write, why be inspired to write
such a piece when you could not get the affect that you wanted.Just imagine the frustration?Then he goes on writes the Tempest, the Appasionata and much more?
The Mozart concerto K466 written for a junkie fortepiano.The man must have been thick! 😳
But of course! They were composing just music for us..

+1 !!
The fact that Mozart wrote concerti for the forte piano and not the harpsichord means he thought the forte piano was superior to the harpsichord. Since the forte piano could vary dynamics this is not surprising. None of this means he would have preferred the forte piano to a piano from the late 1800s or one from today.
I think he would have been in such a state of shock he made have given up music If he heard your Mason and Hamlin or my pianos he would have have had a sudden bout of nausea 😵


My piano's voice is my voice to the great unknown, out there..in other words a hymn.That is all but that is enough.

Just sold my old C2 and am thinking of replacing it with a CBechstein124, Schimmel 132 or a YUS5.
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Originally Posted by tre corda
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by David-G
Originally Posted by tre corda
Now I wonder what on earth could inspired Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven,and Schubert to write all those piano works.I wonder why they dressed so oddly? I mean those dreadful wigs and frills? How could Mozat write, what ..20 piano concertos, many distinctly for the forte piano and not the harpsichord. Wow what a fool! I mean then actually performing them in public on those tin cans? OK we know the man was not very successful in his own day.But he was known as a pianist.Even the dumbest aristocracy busy picking their noses during a performance could have told you that.

That Moonlight sonata written for what type of instrument? I
mean just stick your foot down on the sustainig pedal at beginning of the Adagio and hold the pedal down forever into eternity? Perhaps it was magical? Try that today on modern piano, see what happens???
The Presto Agitato, I mean why write, why be inspired to write
such a piece when you could not get the affect that you wanted.Just imagine the frustration?Then he goes on writes the Tempest, the Appasionata and much more?
The Mozart concerto K466 written for a junkie fortepiano.The man must have been thick! 😳
But of course! They were composing just music for us..

+1 !!
The fact that Mozart wrote concerti for the forte piano and not the harpsichord means he thought the forte piano was superior to the harpsichord. Since the forte piano could vary dynamics this is not surprising. None of this means he would have preferred the forte piano to a piano from the late 1800s or one from today.
I think he would have been in such a state of shock he made have given up music If he heard your Mason and Hamlin or my pianos he would have have had a sudden bout of nausea 😵
Of course, that's pure speculation. He just as easily might have thought they were the most beautiful pianos he ever heard.

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Originally Posted by tre corda
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by David-G
Originally Posted by tre corda
Now I wonder what on earth could inspired Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven,and Schubert to write all those piano works.I wonder why they dressed so oddly? I mean those dreadful wigs and frills? How could Mozat write, what ..20 piano concertos, many distinctly for the forte piano and not the harpsichord. Wow what a fool! I mean then actually performing them in public on those tin cans? OK we know the man was not very successful in his own day.But he was known as a pianist.Even the dumbest aristocracy busy picking their noses during a performance could have told you that.

That Moonlight sonata written for what type of instrument? I
mean just stick your foot down on the sustainig pedal at beginning of the Adagio and hold the pedal down forever into eternity? Perhaps it was magical? Try that today on modern piano, see what happens???
The Presto Agitato, I mean why write, why be inspired to write
such a piece when you could not get the affect that you wanted.Just imagine the frustration?Then he goes on writes the Tempest, the Appasionata and much more?
The Mozart concerto K466 written for a junkie fortepiano.The man must have been thick! 😳
But of course! They were composing just music for us..

+1 !!
The fact that Mozart wrote concerti for the forte piano and not the harpsichord means he thought the forte piano was superior to the harpsichord. Since the forte piano could vary dynamics this is not surprising. None of this means he would have preferred the forte piano to a piano from the late 1800s or one from today.
I think he would have been in such a state of shock he made have given up music If he heard your Mason and Hamlin or my pianos he would have have had a sudden bout of nausea 😵
Of course, that's pure speculation. He just as easily might have thought they were the most beautiful pianos he ever heard.
Originally Posted by David-G
For those here decrying the fortepiano, I would like to relate my own experience.

As people will probably know, I have a very beautiful Bluthner grand piano. For the last several years I have also had an early Broadwood square piano, dated 1804 (with 5 1/2 octaves). This is in effect a fortepiano - wooden frame, light construction, leather hammers, string tension much lower than in a modern instrument.

And I find myself on the whole playing more on the Broadwood than the Bluthner. Why?

* I prefer playing Haydn/Mozart/Beethoven to the Romantic composers, and it is a thrill to play an instrument made in Haydn's lifetime.
* The instrument is simply exquisite, both in looks and in tone.
* The extremely light touch makes execution of rapid ornaments extremely easy.
* The timbre of the bass is completely different from the treble. The parts therefore stand out clearly instead of getting blurred together. This makes an enormous difference to - for instance - the development section of the Adagio of Haydn's Hob.XVI/49.
* The light touch and the short sustain mean phrasing and articulation can be heard much more clearly than on a modern instrument, so that subtleties of staccato, subtleties of articulation make an enormous difference and assume vital importance. This adds a whole dimension and challenge to playing music of this period, which I find enormously stimulating and rewarding.
* It all feels and sounds so "right"!

I can assure you that the Broadwood does not go out of tune before I finish a piece. With careful control of humidity in the room, it stays in reasonable tune for months.
Then why did the modern piano replace the forte piano ?

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Why did the modern piano replace the forte? Just a guess: projection for concert halls


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Then why did the modern piano replace the forte piano ?

Because the musical aesthetic changed from the 18th century, through the Romantic period, and then towards the modern era - and parallel to that, the engineering of the piano changed, with increasing tension and thicker strings. Each fed the other, and there was no going back. And in the 19th century, there was little interest in playing music of the past. What mattered was that the piano would suit the music of the (then) present.

To take a case in point. You could not play Schubert on my Broadwood - it would sound ridiculous. But on a Graf or a Brodmann of the 1820s, or on a Clementi square of the 1820s, Schubert is a complete delight. The change in musical aesthetic runs parallel to developments in the piano. Mozart or Haydn would sound fine on these instruments of the 1820s - but already for this earlier music these instruments have lost some of the delicacy of their predecessors. And similarly, despite the delights of these 1820s instruments, you would not want to be playing Brahms on one.

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Originally Posted by dogperson
Why did the modern piano replace the forte? Just a guess: projection for concert halls
But the overwhelming number of pianos are pianos for the home.

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Originally Posted by David-G
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Then why did the modern piano replace the forte piano ?

Because the musical aesthetic changed from the 18th century, through the Romantic period, and then towards the modern era - and parallel to that, the engineering of the piano changed, with increasing tension and thicker strings. Each fed the other, and there was no going back. And in the 19th century, there was little interest in playing music of the past. What mattered was that the piano would suit the music of the (then) present.

To take a case in point. You could not play Schubert on my Broadwood - it would sound ridiculous. But on a Graf or a Brodmann of the 1820s, or on a Clementi square of the 1820s, Schubert is a complete delight. The change in musical aesthetic runs parallel to developments in the piano. Mozart or Haydn would sound fine on these instruments of the 1820s - but already for this earlier music these instruments have lost some of the delicacy of their predecessors. And similarly, despite the delights of these 1820s instruments, you would not want to be playing Brahms on one.
That's a good answer but then why don't performers play pre Romantic era composers on pre Romantic pianos? I think most people prefer the sound of Baroque and Classical composers on a modern piano.

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I'm not dissing fortepianos. I've heard some really nice ones. I'm complaining about the tuning of the piano in the original video played by Tiffany Poon. It's out of tune - the unisons are out. I doubt that Clara Schumann would have tolerated that for long. Why didn't they tune it before they made a video of it...

I also doubt that it sounds the same way now as it did in 1827.

Sam

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Pianoloverus,
Even if Mozrt could be resurrected for us to ask him we would have had an extremly difficult time (if we could understand late18th century German) understanding his notions of what is
beautiful?)The man died in 1790 and you think he would appreciate a modern day New York Steinway or Bosendorfer?
How about a digital piano?
His ideal sound world is a reflection of everything in his life.
What was that life? Was he a highly acclaimed star? No he would have been treated like little more than a servant.similar to Bach regarded no more than a cook by those that mattered.. This whole question is not really worth much.The most important thing is that we can still enjoy that music on our instruments and in concert halls....even on YouTube!!!

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I listened to a lot of Tiffany Poon vlogs a few months ago. She's a fun, bright star! I could only listen to this for barely 30 seconds. It's just not a piano for her.

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I do not think she wants to buy it.


My piano's voice is my voice to the great unknown, out there..in other words a hymn.That is all but that is enough.

Just sold my old C2 and am thinking of replacing it with a CBechstein124, Schimmel 132 or a YUS5.
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