2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad) SWEETWATER Cyber Week Deals
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
60 members (AprilE, AWilley, Abdol, Beansparrow, An Old Square, accordeur, Bostonmoores, 36251, anotherscott, 6 invisible), 1,195 guests, and 843 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 2,477
S
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 2,477
Originally Posted by cygnusdei
Surely the job of the pianist is to project the musical conception, but in the case of Beethoven Op. 109, from the very first bar it's ambiguous just which one. Or is it crystal clear ?

In the beginning, the accentuation is very light but it exists naturally. But after a few bars, especially bar 4, it is clear where the downbeat is and therefore that it is written with an anacrusis. Some pianists even add a slight pause after the downbeat. The downbeat respond to the upbeat, so if it there wasnt an anacrusis every second beat would be emphasized, which would go against the 2/4 meter. Composers go against the meter but rarely in such a consistent manner. That said at first hearing i dont know how many people would actually recognize it.

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 776
C
500 Post Club Member
OP Offline
500 Post Club Member
C
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 776
So just to crystallize the hypothetical question: "Would you play the original notation and the frameshifted notation differently or exactly the same way?" (see first post)

Differently: Mark_C, Papa D
Exactly the same: bennevis, Sidokar, Jun-Dai
Undecided: pianoloverus, me

Correct me if I'm wrong of course!


A rising tide lifts all the boats
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 776
C
500 Post Club Member
OP Offline
500 Post Club Member
C
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 776
I was reminded of Schumann Op. 18 that has similar sixteenth note broken chord figurations and pick-up, and lo and behold, even identical 2/4 time signature. So one might ask, why are we second guessing Beethoven's metre (are we? hehehe), while the metre in Schumann Op. 18 was never in doubt? Could it be that the tonality is secure in the Schumann (first downbeat in the tonic) while it's unstable in the Beethoven (first downbeat in the dominant)?

At any rate, I think a case can be made that you could play the Beethoven exactly as you would the Schumann, i.e. start with a slight ritardando, then ease into the tempo in the first downbeat - and then follow the metre exactly as notated.

[Linked Image]

Last edited by cygnusdei; 08/15/21 04:00 AM.

A rising tide lifts all the boats
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 2,477
S
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 2,477
Originally Posted by cygnusdei
So just to crystallize the hypothetical question: "Would you play the original notation and the frameshifted notation differently or exactly the same way?" (see first post)

Differently: Mark_C, Papa D
Exactly the same: bennevis, Sidokar, Jun-Dai
Undecided: pianoloverus, me

Correct me if I'm wrong of course!


I would play them differently, but the second one (modified) would sound unnatural as the accentuation of the meter would go against the natural flow of the melody and the natural accentuation as written, like in bar 4 where you would have a strong ending on second beat. The music would sound completely different.

In bar 84, it sounds indeed different as there is no upbeat. It is actually a good illustration of the difference created by the upbeat but also because it is written differently. The second beat motive completes the first beat whereas in bars 1-8 the downbeat responds to the previous upbeat.

Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 110
J
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
J
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 110
@cygnusdei — I would play them differently. I mean, it's impossible to know for sure, since I can't really go to the alternate reality where my first encounter with Op. 109 has it starting on the downbeat, but I suspect in that alternate world I would put a lot more emphasis on the first note. I would then likely end up pairing the g# and b (and e and g#, etc.) as a question-and-answer a bit more as a sort of sub-phrasing, and it would sound a lot less in medias res and the larger phrasing would be a bit subtler as I dial up the question and answer motif.

But that's just a guess, I don't know for sure what I would actually end up with, and if I tried it now it would be so coloured by how I understand Op. 109 now that it would not really be a legitimate experiment.

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 776
C
500 Post Club Member
OP Offline
500 Post Club Member
C
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 776
Ok, noted Sidokar and Jun-Dai. I guess Schiff also belongs in the 'exactly the same' column with bennevis by way of his comment about no downbeats/barlines.

In the frameshifted version, regarding the end of the first phrase where it reaches the tonic in the second beat, I see it as an appogiatura of sorts so I see no inconsistency there.

Last edited by cygnusdei; 08/15/21 08:50 AM.

A rising tide lifts all the boats
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 2,477
S
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 2,477
Originally Posted by cygnusdei
Ok, noted Sidokar and Jun-Dai. I guess Schiff also belongs in the 'exactly the same' column with bennevis by way of his comment about no downbeats/barlines.

In the frameshifted version, regarding the end of the first phrase where it reaches the tonic in the second beat, I see it as an appogiatura of sorts so I see no inconsistency there.

I did not know the Schiff conference and I just listened some parts. Interesting video. There are some observations I agree with and others less. The idea that the mouvement sort of starts in the middle of something is definitely what I feel also. The fact that there is a flowing character, absolutely, and the natural accentuation is very subtle. But in the same time I would not say it is barless. Personally I feel that the flowing is built on an inner pulse and that the meter is quite present, which in a sense gives it a quite unique character. There are plenty of Chopin melodies which would be more "barless" than this one.

Here is for me a barless/measureless piece, first 1.5 minute. It is impossible to put any regular meter in there (sorry about the loaded decor).



or the beginning of:


Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 776
C
500 Post Club Member
OP Offline
500 Post Club Member
C
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 776
Originally Posted by Sidokar
I did not know the Schiff conference and I just listened some parts. Interesting video. There are some observations I agree with and others less. The idea that the mouvement sort of starts in the middle of something is definitely what I feel also

Then you heard the part where he said the opening passage could be seen as an embellishment of the finale of the Sonata Op. 79 - with no qualms about the fact that there the theme starts on the downbeat! To me the theme is also reminiscent of the K. 379 finale, which also starts on the downbeat (both examples align with the frameshifted version).

Last edited by cygnusdei; 08/15/21 10:14 AM.

A rising tide lifts all the boats
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 2,477
S
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 2,477
[quote=cygnusdei]

Then you heard the part where he said the opening passage could be seen as an embellishment of the finale of the Sonata Op. 79 - with no qualms about the fact that there the theme starts on the downbeat!

What he is saying is in fact that the harmony of the opening of the opus 109 is the same as the opening theme of opus 79/iii (Schiff did not discovered that, it is known since a long time). Indeed the bar 1-8 of the opus 109 can be considered as a 4 parts choral put in broken form with some add figuration. The opus 79 theme is different though in rythm and in mood, it is a fairly simple little theme.

Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 11
P
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
P
Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 11
I think the 'in media res' or barless approach is fine too - as long as it does not sound like it starts on a downbeat.

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 23,665
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 23,665
Originally Posted by cygnusdei
So just to crystallize the hypothetical question: "Would you play the original notation and the frameshifted notation differently or exactly the same way?"

The notation as it is serves to keep us from putting any emphasis on that first figure.

Or at least is supposed to. smile

(If it weren't for this notation, I would absolutely make that first beat a stronger one than the next.)

i.e. You put me in the right place in your tally.

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 776
C
500 Post Club Member
OP Offline
500 Post Club Member
C
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 776
Originally Posted by Sidokar
The opus 79 theme is different though in rythm and in mood, it is a fairly simple little theme.
And in metre as well - the fact that Schiff doesn't make this distinction is consistent with his view that he feels no barlines in Op. 109


A rising tide lifts all the boats
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 776
C
500 Post Club Member
OP Offline
500 Post Club Member
C
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 776
Excuse me sir, are you sure you're playing Beethoven Op. 109?

(It seems that a shift in metre is not enough, he adds sixteenth note syncopation as well grin But in his defense, I've heard other pro performances that also sound like this)



A rising tide lifts all the boats
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,170
W
wr Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
W
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,170
Originally Posted by cygnusdei
I like Beethoven Op. 109, but whenever I attempt to learn it I'm always stumbled by the pick-up bar and the resulting metre. If you only listen to performances you wouldn't know that's how it's notated - there are no perceived accents highlighting the descending fourths. In fact the music sounds as if it's notated without a pick-up bar (see below). I don't understand why Beethoven notated the music that way. Did he mean it and it's just that performers don't bother to highlight the true metre?

I think he notated that way so as to land on the surprise of the first chord of the Adagio espressivo section in just the way he wanted it to happen. Playing that opening as simple plain chords, instead of as broken ones with held notes, clarifies what he is up to, I think. The chord sequence is organized in a way that wouldn't work if the piece didn't start on beat 2 of a measure.

Page 2 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

Link Copied to Clipboard
What's Hot!!
Pianos - Organs - & Keyboards, Oh My!
My first professionally recorded piece
---------------------
Visit Maine, Meet Mr. Piano World
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
*NEW* The Strolling LH Bassline
by Dfrankjazz - 12/01/21 10:54 PM
Ned Rorem
by Steveskates - 12/01/21 09:00 PM
When Pianist and Piano Rebuilder Get together
by Chernobieff Piano - 12/01/21 08:51 PM
Regulating a digital piano advice needed
by Purdy - 12/01/21 06:06 PM
WNG Portable Piano pounder.
by jkess114 - 12/01/21 05:16 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics210,341
Posts3,150,101
Members103,489
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5